Why Business Leaders Need Negotiation Skills (with Annette Mullin)

[Dana] (00:01)
Welcome, friends. Whether you’re out on a walk, running errands, or relaxing at home, it’s wonderful to connect with you. Today we’re talking with Annette Mullin. Annette is a retired Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department leader with 24 years of experience. She spent over two decades investigating violent crimes, and nine years as a crisis negotiator, eventually leading the crisis negotiation team. Today, as a negotiation instructor and coach at the Black Swan Group, Annette translates those high-stakes experiences into practical tools for leaders, teams, and individuals navigating pressure, conflict, and growth. Annette, welcome to Phoenix and Flame.

[Annette] (01:04)
Thank you so much for having me. I’m really looking forward to this conversation with you, Dana.

[Dana] (01:08)
This is going to be so interesting. Now I have to throw this in here — I did some research on LinkedIn, and guys, you’re going to be fascinated with this. Now, Annette, you have a master’s degree — was it in theoretical and mathematical physics? Did I look at that correctly?

[Annette] (01:28)
And I have a master’s degree in theology.

[Dana] (01:31)
Theology, Christian leadership.

[Annette] (01:33)
That sounds too correct. Way too smart for me to be theoretical mathematics — I can barely count on my fingers.

[Dana] (01:37)
‘Cause I thought that was going to be such an interesting angle — I thought, my gosh, how does somebody’s brain do that?

[Annette] (01:46)
My brain for sure does not. When you talk about boundaries, there’s one right there.

[Dana] (01:52)
I love it. So your master’s is in Christian leadership — got you. That’s an interesting layer over everything you’ve experienced. So let me just give you space and let you decide where you’d like to begin — how in the world did you get into this space, and what was that like? We’ll just weave back and forth with all kinds of questions.

[Annette] (02:23)
Sounds great. So I am originally from the East Coast, and I landed in Las Vegas because I went to grad school out in LA. While I was out there, LAPD wasn’t hiring, but I wanted to work in what I thought was crime scene investigation — this was before CSI even existed, so I’m dating myself a little. I went to Cal State LA for their criminalistics program, and it was fantastic, because I was there during the O.J. Simpson case. Talk about watching the real world unfold — our instructors were out there doing it. Christopher Darden actually taught at our school; he was one of the prosecutors on the case. Getting to see all of that unfold in front of me, and seeing the issues with the crime scene evidence, really sparked my fire.

But as I got further along in my education, I realized I didn’t want to be behind the scenes — I wanted to be in the forefront, actually investigating the crimes using that evidence. The Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department came to our campus to recruit, and my lead instructors told me, “In LA, you may never be able to afford a house, you might always have a two-hour commute — they’re not hiring.” Las Vegas, on the other hand, was this huge, growing city. He said it was proactive, forward-thinking. So I went out to Las Vegas and was really impressed with the agency. Because it was a growing city, I knew I could go many places in my career. I went out there at 29 years old — one of the oldest people in my academy. What an amazing experience, going through the hard work of the academy. It’s a fantastic agency, the training was amazing.

Then I went out into patrol and worked in outlying areas like Laughlin, Nevada — we have a substation out there. I worked in criminal intelligence, community policing, sexual assault crimes, internal affairs, and then eventually promoted. Right before promoting, I had the opportunity to join the crisis negotiation team, so I went to the school, went through the scenarios, and got chosen for the team.

[Annette] (04:42)
And that was — it was an amazing experience, to be able to respond to people in crisis with a team and work to help them peacefully resolve it so everyone was safe. Las Vegas has one of the busiest crisis negotiation teams in the United States — we were averaging over a hundred call-outs a year. In Las Vegas, for some people, it’s their last stand, whether they’re running from a crime, running from reality, or just find themselves on hard luck. It was a very busy team. I was taught by some of the best — two of my team members now actually work for Black Swan, Chief Dennis Flynn and Sergeant Don Fieselman. They were part of the negotiation team and are now part of Black Swan.

So I was a crisis negotiator, got promoted, went back into sexual assault, then was chosen to go to homicide — my dream from being a little kid, working crime scenes, came to fruition as a supervisor in homicide. Then I went to the police academy so I could help instruct the new recruits coming in. My last spot at the department was as director of employee wellness — I was put there after the events of October 1, the Mandalay Bay shooting, which, if you’re not aware, is the largest mass shooting in the United States. My job was to find resources for our employees and their families as we healed from that devastating incident, on top of the everyday stressors of being in law enforcement — cops have problems just like everyone else. So, looking for ways to help people help themselves.

[Annette] (06:36)
And so I retired in ’21, and that was an amazing place to be, because I learned so much about people — and the honor, as I’m sure you know, of sitting with people in their darkest times and helping them find resources.

[Dana] (06:50)
Wow, what an amazing story. I have three questions — I’ll just toss them out, and you can take them in whatever order you’d like. The first is: what was it about crime that appealed to you as a child, that made you think, “that’s the direction I’m going to go”?

The second is, when you went through the training, the classes, the cohorts — did you notice any gender disparities? I imagine there are women listening who might be thinking, that sounds really interesting, but what’s it going to be like for me? Am I going to be treated equally? What should I expect?

And the third is: what surprised you most about the negotiation experience? When you were engaging with people, trying to talk them down, trying to prevent something horrible from happening — what was something you experienced that you didn’t see coming?

[Annette] (08:15)
Sure, those are great questions — my memory will wander, so you’ll have to get me back on track. You asked why law enforcement: I’m the first law enforcement person in my family, so there was no history, no mentorship, nothing. As a young girl I was an avid reader — a Nancy Drew girl, loving the puzzles, trying to figure things out. And then there was the show Quincy — for those who aren’t of our age, he was a medical examiner who got to solve crimes. It’s Hollywood, not even real, but it sucked me in. I was only allowed to watch one show a week, and I wanted to watch Quincy. I just wanted to have an alligator on my boat like he did! But that Hollywood idea of solving crime is what got me interested at first.

Then, as I got further into it, I realized how much I loved putting pieces together, using your brain — and everyone’s brain — to solve problems and situations, and then helping people in a difficult moment. I’m a helper by nature, so it really appealed to my gifts and my drives.

My father, though — the last thing he wanted was a daughter who was a cop, because he was scared for me. He said, “Please don’t do it here, do it somewhere we’re not worried about every day — we see the news and assume you’ve been involved even when you weren’t working.” And he said, “Please get your education first, just in case you don’t like it — have something to fall back on. Do a dual path.” I agreed, and that’s why I went to the West Coast to become a police officer.

[Annette] (10:10)
You asked about gender — such a great question. I’m the youngest of three girls, and I kind of call myself the boy of the family, because my dad needed someone to play sports with. We were always very active, and — this is going to sound strange — I never considered my gender would be an issue in getting what I wanted, because that was never an issue in our house. You want to work hard, put the work in, you’ll achieve what you want.

But when I got to the police department, I realized there were some very gifted women who’d paved the way for me — who worked hard, who became police officers when that was still rare. I knew coming in that I had mentors I could seek out. One of the best pieces of advice I got early on was: work so well with others, work so hard, that your gender isn’t an issue. Don’t make it about being “this” or “that” — just be a great worker, a great teammate, someone people can rely on. By focusing on the work, on teamwork, on the goal, people wanted me on their team.

It wasn’t until I went to homicide, where they made a big deal that I was the first female homicide sergeant, and wanted to do a media piece on it — and I balked. I said, I’m not comfortable with this, I worked hard to be the best candidate, I don’t want anyone thinking I got this because I’m a woman. The public information officer pulled me aside and said, “That’s great that you worked hard, but there are people out there who don’t know they can do it, whether despite or because of who they are. If you could do this piece for us and explain how you got there, you’ll give hope to someone who didn’t have your background, who doesn’t realize they can do it too.” So I did it. Cops are interesting people — I got some good-natured ribbing from my fellow male officers about it, but you take that in stride, because the more important thing was whether it could help someone else realize they could do it too. That’s really the only place I saw gender come up. Vegas was a very proactive agency, with amazing role models ahead of me who’d paved the way by doing the work — so I wasn’t coming in as a detriment, I was coming in as an asset.

[Dana] (12:46)
I love that. I have another question along the same lines, and I’m going to try to word it right. Have you ever run into a situation — because people have different points of view, and sometimes we make assumptions about other people’s actions or lack of action, and I talk to people sometimes about prejudicial kinds of experiences — where someone was projecting, assuming they were being treated a certain way because of some kind of profiling, when that actually wasn’t the case? You mentioned going into it wanting to just be a good teammate, not seeing yourself as different, just showing up, connecting, doing the job well. Did you ever run into situations where, for whatever reason, someone had a chip on their shoulder and assumed people were treating them differently because of something about them, when that actually wasn’t the case?

[Annette] (14:00)
All the time. I think everyone has their own perspective, their own reason for why things are happening, and it’s easy to fall back on that instead of getting curious about why it’s happening. I was glad I had some life experience before I became a cop, because that matters — you put these eighteen-, twenty-one-year-old kids, these young adults, out there to help people solve problems when they have no life experience in that area. How are you going to help?

What I learned early is: not everybody is like you, not everyone has the same background or way of thinking — let them lead you as to how they got there. Removing assumptions was really key for me. I had to just get curious about how we got here, why we’re here, and not assume I knew where they were going — let them show me or tell me, and then help guide them once they’d expressed where they were.

I think that really helped, because everyone comes into a situation with their own chip, their own experiences. It was my job to figure out what that was, so I could at least understand the issue, or help point back to — maybe there’s another reason the cops are here today, or you weren’t pulled over because of A, B, C, it was actually because of this. When you can explain that to someone, and listen to how they’re seeing it, it often gave me the opportunity to explain what was really going on, because I’d given them the space to express themselves first.

[Dana] (15:33)
That’s awesome. I can totally see how that plays into the negotiation experience — what I’m hearing is listening, curiosity, creating space, giving people room to express and describe what they’re feeling and why, giving that some honor, some respect, and then working from there. That seems like a lot of what an effective negotiator does.

And to jump back to that last question — something that surprised you when you engaged with people in these scenarios, people who may have had a lot of interesting, maybe traumatic backgrounds, who were making assumptions about themselves and others because of horrible things they’d experienced — what’s one thing that surprised you, about yourself, the situation, or other people, that you didn’t see coming?

[Annette] (16:52)
I can tell you, going in as a crisis negotiator — my first case was a gentleman who’d robbed a bank. I’ve never robbed a bank, never committed a felony crime in my life. So going in, there’s a lot of pressure — how am I going to engage with this person, let alone with everyone listening to you? What really surprised me is that it doesn’t matter who the person is — there’s a universal need for every person to be heard, to be seen, and to be understood. It’s universal.

That’s the reason negotiators exist. If we only had SWAT, the big cars, all of that, and I walked up and started yelling, “Hey, come on, get your butt out here!” — we’ve created a dynamic for violence. That’s not going to end well. Maybe someone comes out because they respect the force and authority, but in the end, that’s not going to end well.

The reason negotiators are there is to bring the temperature down. When you give someone the ability to think, to express themselves — I know I’m preaching to the choir with you — when you let those emotions come out and get expressed, they start to go down. And when the emotions go down, rational thinking goes up, and now we’ve got something to work with.

That was truly surprising — it was so scary to pick up the phone and get someone engaged to start with. But in the end, what worked was allowing the person, without judgment — because if I’m judging you all day for what you’re doing, you’re not going to interact with me, we’re not going anywhere. I don’t know how you got there, but if I can get you to express what’s going on, all of a sudden you start to think more clearly. Logic comes in — okay, wait, I need to figure this out, how we’re going to solve this. Because in the end, I’m likely selling the person in crisis on jail time — that’s probably what’s going to happen today. What I don’t want is for the crisis to get worse, for you to hurt yourself or anyone else. We’re trying to figure out how to resolve this so you can move forward.

I was really surprised at how, even though you’d think we’d be so different — I’ve never robbed a bank, never murdered anyone — giving that person the opportunity to work through it, they’re in a spot, and we need to figure out how to help them walk out of it. But they’re not walking alone, because my job is to walk across the field mentally, see the world through your eyes, and engage with you so we’re both seeing it and working to resolve it together, collaborating to help you be safe. It doesn’t mean there won’t be consequences, it doesn’t mean anything changes about that — instead, it’s giving them the opportunity to ask, okay, how do we move forward from here?

[Dana] (20:05)
That is awesome. I’m really curious about your thoughts on whether the crime itself is almost a secondary issue. Let me give an example: when I talk to people who are abusing alcohol or some kind of medication excessively, people focus on that so much, but when you actually talk to them, you find out that’s a secondary thing — it’s not the original issue, it’s a response to the original issue. As you’re talking, that’s what’s coming to my mind — what are your thoughts on the crime being secondary to what the original issue actually is?

[Annette] (21:06)
Absolutely. If someone doesn’t need money, they’re not going to rob a bank, they’re not going to do all the things to get money — there’s a need there that isn’t being met. There’s a basic need they’re trying to get, and they’re going about it differently than you or I would. Something is going on there — what’s led us to this point? When you get someone to talk about why they’re in the situation, how they got there, it’s allowing them the opportunity to explain, and it gives me an opening to help them — okay, where are we going to go today, how can I help you get through this?

I think there are always going to be secondary issues. If there’s a violent crime, something’s usually happened beforehand — there’s some kind of trigger. I’m not placing blame anywhere it doesn’t belong, but there’s usually something else underlying it — a trigger, a response to why we’re there that day.

[Dana] (22:16)
That’s fabulous, because what I’m hearing are two things: one, there’s a secondary issue — a core issue that happened before, like you said, maybe a need that wasn’t met, and poor coping skills, not knowing how to get that need met. You don’t know what background someone came out of. And also, since they’re an adult who chose to behave that way — because there are other people out there who’ve experienced something similar and didn’t respond with crime — there does need to be accountability, natural consequences for behavioral choices. If someone goes too far in either direction — if it’s all “bless their heart, they were traumatized, they shouldn’t be held accountable” — that doesn’t end well. But it also doesn’t end well if someone’s way too punitive and has no interest in finding out what caused the person to do it in the first place. It seems like there needs to be a balance — is that what you’re saying?

[Annette] (23:39)
Correct, in my opinion, absolutely. We’re not robots — we all have our own individual circumstances, but each of us is responsible for our own actions, our own choices. You could have two people with the exact same upbringing, the same issues, and it could be horrific, but they don’t make the same choices — that’s on them. So accountability is always important, but it’s also important to ask how someone heals, how they move forward. It might not help the person they’ve harmed, but in the end, there’s still a human being we’re trying to salvage for their own life, long-term. My hope is that everyone can heal in their own way.

[Dana] (24:28)
That’s fabulous. Now I want to shift to this next segment — I’m fascinated by how you’re using your experience with crisis negotiation, and a lot of what we’ve talked about so far, in the corporate and business space, helping leaders use these skills. Help us connect those dots.

[Annette] (24:58)
Absolutely. Chris Voss is a genius — for those who don’t know, he was an FBI crisis negotiator, an amazing negotiator with saves throughout the world. When he left, he went to Harvard and was able to turn some other negotiation approaches on their head by thinking a little differently. He wrote a book called Never Split the Difference — it’s ten years old this month — and it takes crisis negotiation principles, what I learned going through the FBI negotiation school, what Chris learned as an FBI crisis negotiator, and takes them to the business world. How does this translate?

He’s adopted something called tactical empathy — actually being able to recognize the perspective of another person, and then verbalizing that perspective back to them, demonstrating that you’re seeking to understand where they’re coming from. In the negotiation world, it’s incredible how it’s about making it about the other party first, before it’s about yourself. In business negotiation, we’re so often “me, me, me, my ask, what can I get” — instead, it’s about understanding where the other person is coming from first. From there, you’re able to collaborate, knowing their vision, because vision drives decision.

He’s written the book, and now he teaches, we teach, people all over the world. Most of our instructors are crisis negotiators or experienced business people. It’s fascinating — teaching these simple communication and active-listening skills, with the core being listening first and making it about the other person, you’re able to make deals you never thought possible, because you’ve got two sides working together. It’s a joy to help people who have bigger brains than I’ll ever have, who’ve seen things I’ve never seen, who talk about numbers I’ll never fully understand — but being able to help them create things they never thought were possible with some simple skills, whether it’s one-on-one coaching or events, has been fascinating.

I think these kinds of skills should be taught in middle school and high school — teaching people to listen first, to listen for the reason behind why people are saying what they’re saying, instead of listening just long enough to respond. It’s a different way of doing business, and I love it.

[Dana] (27:48)
It sounds amazing. I have two questions — let’s see if I can get them both out before one disappears, since we’re being brutally honest here. The first: what do you feel is the biggest obstacle to listening? It sounds like a no-brainer, so why do we have such a problem with it? And the second: what’s the main issue you hear from business leaders — over and over — the struggle they come to you with?

[Annette] (28:43)
Okay, listening first. Listening is hard — I think we’re programmed to listen to respond. There are five levels of listening we teach at Black Swan. The lowest is just half-listening, where you’re doing other things, catching the gist — I call it the “mother-in-law” level, where you just go “uh-huh, uh-huh” and let the conversation go. The next is listening to problem-solve — and I think, as a cop, that’s a lot of what I did: listening just long enough to think, I’ve got a solution.

But if that’s all you’re doing, you’re not letting your counterpart truly explain where they’re coming from — you’re almost dismissing where they’re at. Instead, we focus on listening for the reason behind what someone is saying, and for the emotions tied to it. I think we’re so programmed in the business world with scripts — I’ve got to get through A, B, C, D, or get my ask out there first — that we miss the opportunity to just listen, to let the other person get that rational thinking up and the stress down, so we’re actually thinking and working together logically. I think we’re just programmed to play ping-pong when we talk, instead of taking the time to soak in what someone’s saying and get curious about it. I don’t think we’re taught to do that.

[Dana] (30:09)
Right, that makes a lot of sense. And a lot of that listening-to-solve-a-problem — it appears helpful, but really it’s more about the listener feeling good about solving the problem.

[Annette] (30:22)
Right. I have teenage kids, and I listen to problem-solve all the time, because that’s my go-to with them — I mean, that’s my job. But if instead I listen to what they’re saying and get curious about it, all of a sudden, as they’re talking, they’re solving the problem themselves. If I just tell them how to do something, they’re not going to do it, or they’ll be reluctant. But if it’s their idea, guess what — they’re doing it, because it’s their idea.

That’s where I think we miss it, by not letting someone solve their own problem. You can be there with them, but letting them solve it themselves creates ownership, and people are more likely to follow through than if you’d just solved it for them. Not everyone wants their problem solved — some people just want to vent, just want to express what they’re feeling. If you jump to problem-solving, you’re not giving them the chance to actually get that expression out.

[Dana] (31:17)
Yeah, absolutely. So — the next question, and then we’ll get to how listeners can find you: what’s the main struggle business leaders bring to you? What do you hear on repeat from these leaders who are trying to do a good job, who reach out and say, “please help me with this, I’ve tried everything I know and I can’t get it fixed, it keeps happening”?

[Annette] (31:50)
I think, often, it’s that we all have our go-to ways of fixing things. We can sit down and talk through it — okay, we’re going to make it about the other person first, change our sequencing, get all that information out, see things from the same side — and that’s great, but then people work against themselves and go right back to what they’re used to doing. I think people are scared to try it, or they think, “that’s never going to work,” and they work against themselves — I see that so often.

At Black Swan, we have different techniques we call “labels” and other things we do — if you don’t actually practice them, in low-stakes situations, with friends, family, at a restaurant, then when the big negotiation comes, you don’t have the confidence that it’s going to work, so you just set it aside. It’s kind of like if I read a book about working out every week but never lift a weight — I can’t expect to see anything different. I think it’s shifting the mindset that this takes work and consistency, but you’ll see great results. We hear it all the time — people call us excited, saying, “I tried it, and I can’t believe it worked” — because they practiced, and then they put it into practice, and it was perfect. That’s what we love to hear, people trusting the process.

[Dana] (33:19)
I love that, and you’re absolutely right — I teach the same thing to my patients. Take deep breathing, for example: we could go through an exercise in the office and you could have a great experience, but you need to practice it when you’re calm, several times a day, exactly how to do it, so that when the moment comes and you feel like you’re battling a panic attack, you’ve got the skill and your body just knows how to do it — you don’t have to think about it, because you’ve done it so much it’s on autopilot. But it takes that practice, at that low-stakes level, like you said. Awesome. So, Annette, how can my listeners and viewers find you? If they want to get in touch, get more of what you’ve got, where do they go?

[Annette] (34:12)
Black Swan Group has a website you can go to, and you can find me on LinkedIn. You can find Chris Voss and the Black Swan Group all over YouTube. There’s a new book that just came out — I’ll show it to you — that takes Never Split the Difference and brings it into a new space; it’s called Fight Less, Win More. It takes great hostage-negotiation skills and puts them into personal and business life, a lot of how we’ve adapted the skills from ten years ago. I actually gave it to my sisters, and they said, “how to never get into a fight with my husband — book?” And I said, yes, exactly — it’s about learning about each other again, even after being together for years. I highly recommend it. But yes, find me on LinkedIn, please. I’m very grateful for the opportunity Black Swan has given me, and I think it can really help people.

[Dana] (35:06)
Fabulous. Annette, this has been great — I so appreciate you being willing to spend your precious time and effort, and being vulnerable, sharing some of your personal experiences and the wisdom you’ve gleaned over the years, from your time with crisis negotiation, with me, my listeners, my viewers. Thank you, Annette, so much.

[Annette] (35:29)
Well, thank you — it’s been a joy to listen to your podcast. I love what you’re doing, showing people that there are so many places you can go, even when you’re down in the dust. I’m really grateful for what you’re doing for others. So, thank you.

[Dana] (35:41)
Thank you, Annette. Now, listeners, viewers — listen, I know you’ve heard at least five things today that made you think, “I know a friend, a coworker, a family member who needs to hear exactly what Annette just said.” Take this podcast episode, copy and paste it, send it in a text, send it in an email, put it on your favorite social media platform, so we can grow our Phoenix and Flame community and let people know: you are not alone. I hope your day has been great. I hope the rest of your day is fantastic. I’m Dana, on Phoenix and Flame.