Overcoming Success-Fueled Anxiety (with Matt Gerlach)

[Dana] (00:01)
Welcome to Phoenix and Flame. Whether you’re out on a walk, running errands, or relaxing at home, I am so glad that you are joining us and I’m happy to be able to connect with you today. We have got a wonderful guest with us today, Matt Gerlach. Now, I am so interested in what Matt has to say because he has a proven track record of helping dozens of startups. scale to seven, eight, nine figures over the past 15 years, but he also encountered debilitating anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts after launching his first business. He works closely with entrepreneurs and executives, grappling with self-doubt and anxiety, guiding them to lead their businesses and lives to maximum profit, freedom, and impact. Matt, welcome to Phoenix and Flame.

[Matt] (00:59)
Thanks for having me. I’m happy to be here.

[Dana] (01:01)
This is so exciting and listeners Matt and I were talking earlier and me being an entrepreneur as well, I really, I resonated with a lot of what your experience was and your personal experience and also you walking with other people who were experiencing those things. Because being an entrepreneur is an interesting path. And so I just kind of wanted to give you some space, Matt, to share with us what comes to mind about

[Dana] (01:31)
How did you get to do what you’re doing? How did that come about? And then what was your journey like?

[Matt] (01:38)
simply came about through setting boundaries and saying no to learning to say no to the things that weren’t serving me. You know, I’m at a really interesting point right now in that I had built myself a million dollar a year services business that consulting and services. So I was putting that in my pocket. And about seven months ago, I left as I had been on this journey to like get to know myself better and live more authentically, I realized that what I was doing, it’s just not what I was put on this earth to do. And it served its purpose in so many ways. And I it’s led me to just want to help other people. And also, you know, it’s been interesting, like, I actually met with a man yesterday, kind of a mentor, a coach kind of person. And he’s I mean, I’m really interested in trying to figure out my why, like why am I doing this? And of course it’s to help people, but it was really interesting. And like, I’ve like had this clarity for a while that whether I wake up in the morning to help myself or to help people, I’m still helping people, you know? And the why that we kind of came up with, it was like a really big process that we went through, but it was like, because I want to be free. And…

[Dana] (02:48)
Mm-hmm.

[Matt] (02:58)
this morning as I was doing my journaling, realized like, this is what I’ve been looking for is to like, I the life that I’ve built and what I bring other entrepreneurs and executives into is kind of my framework in terms of how I’ve learned how to feel good. love cooking. love gathering. love connecting with people. I love writing and reading and learning and growing and mentoring and It’s, it’s, it’s, um, this is all like, this has all happened because I have learned to listen to myself and I’ve learned to like, when we’re feeling warning signs, when things are going on, wake up calls, if you will, those are all invitations for us to do something about them. And I’m a big yoga. Um, I I’m actually a yoga instructor. That was what, um, that was a big part of my healing journey, which I’m sure we’ll get to. Um,

[Dana] (03:48)
Oh yeah.

[Matt] (03:55)
But the framework of yoga is so helpful in life. If you take nothing else, this is just so easy to digest. In yoga, we’re in a pose and it’s uncomfortable and we are supposed to aim to sit through that. If your knee is screaming in sharp shooting pain, we are not supposed to be sitting through that kind of an experience. And that applies to all of life. Discomfort is something we work through and when like, as you alluded to earlier, like this anxiety, these panic attacks and all of this, this was a warning sign that I, it took me a while to really learn what to do with, but that’s what I help other people with.

[Dana] (04:38)
Oh my gosh, okay, so I’m already, I’m taking notes. So, okay, I’m taking notes so we can get back to this because I want to go back to the beginning. I don’t want to forget because oh, good stuff. And I will ask those questions. But I wanted to really kind of build a foundation first because when we start out in life, know, people say, when I grow up, I want to be, right? Rarely do people say, when I grow up, I want to be an entrepreneur, right? Because what does that even mean? And so I’m interested in your particular journey in the beginning, like what was the foundation of what got you going in that direction that you ended up being an entrepreneurial space and helping other people and learning what you did? What kind of motivated you to move in that direction?

[Matt] (05:31)
Survival and I don’t know any just survival. I mean, I don’t think that I like I never growing up Survival, I mean, you know when I was younger I did I do remember having like being a math teacher was something that was interesting for me because I do like math not like advanced calculus stuff, but like, you know advanced GL like advanced algebra type stuff, but like I knew that that wasn’t going to afford me a life that I mean I

[Dana] (05:51)
Yeah.

[Matt] (06:00)
I mean, it wasn’t going to make enough money for me. and it wasn’t really like, I’m not like sitting here saying, gosh, I really wish I would have pursued that path. But other than that, I had no aspirations to pursue a certain type of work. well, I know that I’m thinking about this. Being a lawyer was a little interesting too, but that was off limits because just the amount of money that would have needed to be invested into school wasn’t something that I had the means for. And in hindsight, I have a lot of friends that are lawyers and few of them are thrilled with their careers at this point. So that was a blessing in disguise. But yeah, it was survival. you know, now, like, I think the world is a much, it’s, mean, the cost of living problem in the world is a big problem. And I just don’t know any other way to remedy it other than entrepreneurship. It’s the only Path that I’ve seen where people like me actually have the opportunity to make enough money to afford life I don’t really know anybody that’s working a corporate life. That’s like getting taken care of all that well, so

[Dana] (07:09)
Well, the cool thing is about with entrepreneur opportunities, it’s available for anyone. You don’t have to have a specific degree. You don’t have to have a specific this or specific that. I’m curious because I’ve walked this journey myself and I’ve had the opportunity and a blessing to hear other entrepreneurs and their journeys. Although no

[Matt] (07:16)
It is.

[Dana] (07:36)
no specific degree is required or something like that, from your experience, from your personal experience and also people that you’ve talked to, what types of, I don’t know if you call it personality traits or just behavior patterns or ways of thinking that you have run into that you felt like lent themselves towards someone to survive and succeed and thrive in the entrepreneurial space.

[Matt] (08:04)
Oh gosh, I mean, there’s quite a few. I’m just going to kind of go with what’s coming, but I could probably list 20 or 30. We won’t list one year 30 though. But, I would say no particular order, um, being a Jack or a Jill of all trades, you know, being able to do things and you don’t have to necessarily do them all. Well, I mean, you’d need to do them well enough, but like, you don’t need to be adept in every single part of this, but you need to learn. I mean, you’re going to be wearing several hats. Um, I would say that like. like the, I mean, emotional intelligence, reading people, sales, sales, absolutely business development. I would say scrappiness, know, being able to, you know, like just to scrap, I mean, just being able to like make things happen. My mom used to say turning a sow’s ear into a silk purse. but you know, I think a little bit more deeper down the.

[Matt] (09:01)
down the importance level. I mean, there things that I would say that are more unique that I’ve seen and that I have seen and I myself have benefited from. I would say it’s really a generosity, taking care of people that take care of you. I have worked at so many places where like, you know, the head dog is, you know, making 90 % of the profit and just splitting the rest of it with everybody else thinking that that’s fair. And it’s like, I mean, you get what you pay for. But, you know, I mean, just compassion. mean, I see this. I think that right now, like for anybody who owns a business or anybody who’s in a leadership role with power, you have the opportunity to take care of your employees better and just stand out. So many companies are not doing that right now. And at the end of the day, an unhappy employee is going to leave. as soon as they can. And to be honest, like I see, I don’t see very many companies even managing employees that well. So it’s like, your employee may be in their chair for 40 hours a week, but like, you’re not really even managing them. So who knows what they’re even doing. And you want to take care of people so they care about your business the way that, you know, the way that you do. And the best way to do that is by paying them well. There’s a book called 10 X is easier than two X and I’ve listened to this book, I’m on the fourth time listening to it. There’s a lot of different nuggets in this book that are so good, but it’s like, you know, most of us entrepreneurs, what we want is we want a lot of freedom and autonomy and like to not have to manage our employees very well. That’s possible, but you have to pay your employees so well that like it works both ways that if they left, you would be screwed because they are doing so much autonomously and your job. If you want that kind of freedom as an owner is to is to make sure they don’t leave.

[Dana] (10:49)
Yes, that is so true. We were talking earlier about if you want to expand in the entrepreneurial space, and I’ve heard other people say this and I’m experiencing this myself now, is that you have to get the stuff off your plate that is not your gift, that is not your passion. Let someone else do that so that you can stay in your space.

[Matt] (10:51)
Thanks

[Dana] (11:17)
Something else that you said kind of resonated with me is I’ve run into this, what’s so helpful is a desire to serve, is having your passion and really having this desire to want to serve others with what you’ve learned, with what you know, and wanting to help someone else not have to go through the crap that you’ve gone through so that if you can help them learn something that you learned the hard way. and you can maybe give them the fast track to it and help them to succeed and do better, not have to go through that and give them those skills. That desire to help and serve others is really seems to be helping the entrepreneurs that do so well because they care about the people that they’re serving.

[Matt] (12:04)
Absolutely, and I would say that one of the biggest opportunities that I’ve seen working with dozens of different companies is a lot of times the owner of the company like doesn’t even he or she would not even be a customer of the Products we’re selling like because they’re too high-end like or they’re too, you know technical so the companies that I’ve seen do the best are where the owner and the founder are actually like making products or services that they needed themselves. And I think the word serve is amazing, but I think it can be confusing to some of us. It’s been confusing to me a bit because my life has been so much about survival. And that’s why I so it’s like, I’m not a selfish person. Like I have had to kind of look out for myself in a way that I Like if you would have found me 10 years ago, I wouldn’t have been able to process the word serve because I was just trying to survive. And that’s why I started, like this whole why thing is very interesting for me because I absolutely love who I’m working with. I absolutely love helping the people I’m helping. But I think at the end of the day, the word serve can sometimes, like my partner said this, like, because I said it, you know, a few months ago and he was like, that’s interesting. I’ve never heard that like that. And he agreed that it is, he didn’t like say it was wrong, but it’s like, that’s why it was so kind of liberating to like, I’m making the business now that makes me feel good, makes me feel free. And I’m absolutely serving every single person that comes my way. Like, this is not like I’m trying to, I’m not even that into the money part. I mean, I like money as much as everybody does, but it’s like, I truly am like of service, but I’m just kind of making what I needed, what I need.

[Dana] (13:54)
But I think you’re bringing up an excellent point in the survival. And you mentioned earlier about employees whose bosses, whose managers aren’t really managing them, they don’t really care, like the owners don’t really care, aren’t really sharing the wealth, so to say. That reminds me of one of the motivations with boundaries is that we are responsible. And I tell people, said, you know what, there’s only one person on this planet who has been given the responsibility of keeping you together, just one. And we are given that responsibility. And that’s what I hear in you saying about survival. And we all have been given that responsibility to do. And so if whatever position, wherever we’ve been dropped on this planet, whatever position that we’re in, that we can use our skills, boundaries being one of them, to make sure that we do well, to make sure that we survive, to make sure that we don’t get sucked under the bus in somebody else’s pathology, that we’re able to. know, blaze our own trail and that’s on us to do. And that is absolutely a survival thing.

[Matt] (14:54)
I had to learn that it’s my responsibility to set boundaries. It’s my responsibility. Like my life is my responsibility. what I’ve recently, well, I don’t think boundaries are, I mean, I boundaries are a lifelong process. know, it’s a, we’re always getting into new situations. I think they become so much easier. Like a couple months ago, I was setting a boundary and I was like, holy crap, Matt. was like, you’re like, like, like this is like a hundred times harder than things that used to like. used to lie awake at night sweating about like some of these like tiny things, but they get so much easier now. And this is the journey like setting these boundaries is like you’re teaching and you’re showing and proving to yourself that you know how to take care of yourself and advocate for yourself. And I’m a very compassionate, like, you know, sensitive person to other people. like, I have I mean, I have a couple of handfuls of people in my life right now that are really unhappy at their jobs. And I mean, some of these people have been unhappy at their jobs for years. And I understand the job market right now is like not necessarily easy to navigate. But like here I am out here, like really building an entirely new business, creating a market, like nobody’s coming to me and saying, Hey, like I’ve been looking for a coach. Where have you been all my life? You know, so much of it is like me having to you know, meet people and like be where people are at that are looking for help and explain to them my journey and how coaching and mentorship have benefited me. And I have to just like be honest. I mean, I’m saying this, it’s a little bit of tough love. But like if you’re in a situation, if you’re in a job that you don’t love right now, people I mean, I forget like there’s like 400,000 new jobs every month being added, like 400,000 people are getting jobs. And it’s like, I’m not saying that they’re getting jobs in two weeks. But like if I was looking for a new job right now, I would be identifying the type of work that I wanted to do or the company I wanted to do work for. And I would be reaching out to these managers, these hiring people. And if you do three of those a day for three months, that’s nine hours, 20 working days a month. So that’s 60 people that you have in your pipeline, send them something of value. Like, hey, like, you know, I saw this article about your competitor and. You think those 60 people aren’t going to have a job come up at some point in the next six months? I like, I think that, you know, so many of us are just like, this is the scrappiness, you know, I mean, so many of us are just pressing the button on Indeed or on LinkedIn to apply for the job. And they’re like, Oh, it says there’s a thousand applicants. Of course there is. It takes only two seconds to press a button. And, um, I’m not saying like something’s wrong with anybody who’s not like being scrappier and more resourceful. It’s just like, we do have the ability to change ourselves if we’re willing to get creative about it.

[Matt] (17:41)
I’m kind of on this high horse right now. started this Kabbalah workshop and I went last night and it’s just like all of these obstacles in our lives are invitations. And one of the things that stood out to me, like when a client says no to you, when a job says no to you, it’s an invitation to get more creative about how to get a yes.

[Dana] (18:01)
Yeah, mean, I love the way you’re giving because you were saying first when when someone sends out, you know, an application to have already looked into the business to have already read an article because you’re already looking at it from the sense of how can I serve them? How can I be of use to you? How you know, how am going to set myself aside rather than use like you said, just pushing a button? It’s reaching out with something you’re you’re offering something. This is This is what I have to offer you. I can be of service to you. You want me to work for you. Now you said something a few minutes ago that I wanted to hover over. It seems like sometimes we can be very forgiving and supportive of other people and their issues, but I have found myself, and I’ve talked to other people as well, that sometimes we’re pretty damn hard on ourself. We wouldn’t be as hard on other people as we are on ourselves and especially in any space, but entrepreneurial because there’s not set. mean, there’s so much that you have to like figure out on the way and there’s always comparison. I don’t care where you are, what you’re doing. You’re gonna find somebody who’s doing it better, who’s doing it faster, who’s been doing it longer. And so you get sucked into the imposter syndrome, you get sucked into the comparative game and all of that. I’m kind of wondering for you, like you mentioned earlier that after you started your first business, that you really struggled with anxiety and depression, even to the point of suicidal ideation. If you wouldn’t mind kind of taking us there for any listeners that might be at that point in their journey today as they’re listening and thinking, what was that like for Matt? and what brought him to that place and how did he find his way out?

[Matt] (19:55)
Yeah, I appreciate that question. And I have a lot of compassion for somebody who’s who’s going through that. So I mean, please reach out if you have any. mean, if you want to talk more about it. So for me, you know, my story was when I started my, my consulting and services business eight years ago, I was immediately met with what I would have called worrying, like just obsessive worrying. And I smoked pack of cigarettes every single day pretty much, which looking back, like, I mean, It’s very anxiety producing to have a cigarette. mean, it’s like it’s messing up your body. Um, I drank a lot of alcohol. was smoking marijuana. I was just, I, I mean, I, I mean, I went to the gym and I drank a lot of water too, but I was also, I mean, I wasn’t taking care of myself. I wasn’t sleeping very well. And what I’m saying is like this worrying that I was feeling was completely exacerbated by how crappy I was treating my body. And I’m using the word worrying intentionally. I’ll get there in a moment. But this worrying got so bad that I was downright depressed and I didn’t see any ways out. I didn’t want to hurt myself and I didn’t try to or anything, but I was worried that I might wake up in middle of the night and just be too in too much pain and hurt myself because of it. Went to the doctor, the doctor found out I had high blood pressure, no big surprise because I was treating my body so badly and worried all the time. And then I ended up in the hospital two different times thinking I was dying of a heart attack because I didn’t like, was feeling so terribly on the inside. I didn’t know that emotional health mattered. Like it’s so, it’s just crazy to say that, but I had no idea. You know, growing up like, and in hindsight, my grandmother, you know, she was the most anxious, worrying. I mean, I’ve never met anybody that’s been that worried in my entire life. We grew up watching that and she was also a very loving, kind person. And then, you know, it was passed down. My mom had a lot of anxiety and worry. And I remember my mom used to have migraines a lot and like, it was just kind of like, you know, I mean, obviously they were debilitating, you know, she didn’t really like, like, I mean, think she felt, mean, like she didn’t ever, at least I never observed her like. acknowledging that was from stress, you know, that was from just what was happening on the outside. And it was just like, oh, you know, I mean, she, and I remember her thinking that she had a brain tumor because it was happening. So my journey led me to real, mean, I finally had to face this and like, you know, I was in therapy and I started yoga teacher training to where I was the first time I was around a whole bunch of other adults who were talking about their deep emotional health issues and things that were normal. was like, oh my God, like everyone’s suffering in the world. and just most people aren’t talking about it. And it led me down a path to realize that my childhood wasn’t as I was telling myself it was. was a lot of sadness and a lot of pain and trauma that happened in my childhood that I just had completely swept under a rug. And it’s interesting, I left this consulting business behind about seven months ago. And I still do consulting work for some clients, but it was just like I was… really like it was, it became more of a services business. And I’d been with the two clients that I was with for seven and eight years and just really ready for a change. I was really proud of the work that I had done with them. And it was a really good relationship, but it was just time for something different. But when I started this business, like I had this like horrible anxiety or this, mean, I mean, this worrying, which I came to realize was anxiety and depression. And about three or four months ago, I started writing a book about this. I wrote a book about the journey. It’s not published yet, but I’m a big writer. like one of this is all going to make its way out in the world one day. But I started realizing that like, I thought I mean, I thought that I thought that there’s, mean, I thought that when this anxiety and depression was happening back then, when I started the business, I thought it was solely because of my inability to not set boundaries and not advocate for myself. And that was part of it. you know, by advocating for myself and setting boundaries. And that was work I did through coaching and through therapy and other things. I grew my business to where I was making a million dollars a year because I advocated for I was making my clients a ton of money and I wanted a piece of it. They agreed once I learned to develop the courage to approach them about, know, what I thought was fair, and then setting boundaries about what I wouldn’t do anymore. That wasn’t my scope of work. And

[Dana] (24:26)
Hahaha

[Matt] (24:38)
What I realized though was like, looking back, like that anxiety and depression and everything, that was a wake up call for me to not go down that path. I don’t think there’s any mistakes in life. I don’t think there’s like wrong or waste. So I think that this path, I mean, it clearly had afforded me the ability to solve a lot of money, a lot of problems that can be solved with money and a lot of problems can be solved with money. So, I mean, it really allowed me to be on this journey, but. In hindsight, those wake up calls were, they were telling me not to start this business. I didn’t want to start this business. I was afraid of scarcity. And to be honest, I had just left a job where I was making a quarter million dollars a year. I had probably saved three or $400,000 over my lifetime. So could I have taken six months to figure out what I really wanted to do? Yeah, I could have. And that’s what I’m doing now. It’s just my bills are a lot more now, so would have been a lot easier when I was younger.

[Dana] (25:36)
You know, I appreciate your transparency with that. You know, everyone’s just kind of on an interesting journey. And I was also wanting to ask you, in light of what you just said, there’s different types of pain. And you mentioned earlier, you talked about yoga. And if you’re in a pose and you have like sharp shooting pain, then clearly you don’t need to be doing that. But sometimes it’s more of a discomfort that you need to. to just allow to happen and just allow your body and your mind to push through that. I have found that going on my journey, entrepreneurial journey, it’s sometimes you will have those types of discomfort. And I’m interested in your experience, yours and the experience you’ve had with your clients as a coach. If I have someone listening right now that they don’t really know how to differentiate, they’re in some pain. They don’t know, they’re questioning, should I do this? Should I not do this? Is this a sign that I should stop? Is this just a discomfort that I should kind of push through? Should I be resilient? Should I have some grit? know, should I just keep going? From your experience and from your wisdom, what would you share with that person that is having trouble differentiating the pain?

[Matt] (27:00)
I love that question and it’s a very fair question and it’s funny because like as I’ve moved into this coaching world, like there’s some pressure to like, what’s the framework? What’s the easy, I mean, like what’s the easy thing to do? What’s the bullet? And so much of it goes back to just like, it is a conversation a lot of times it’s talking with somebody and to answer your question, I’m going to answer it a couple of ways. A lot of it is talking with somebody, getting perspective. That’s probably the best thing I would recommend. but to self-service yourself, which you absolutely can. You I mean, you need to, like, you need to ask yourself, you know, what do you need? like, I try not to, like, I don’t tell my clients you have to do yoga to work with me. Like, I try to be like, you know, be flexible. But I think I’m getting to the point where you do have to journal to work with me. Like, you have to be willing to, like, investigate that pain. Like, I can’t, you know, we’ll use the example, like, I can’t sleep anymore. Like, I’m just constantly, like, the… the invitation I have for you would be to journal about that. Like, like, what’s on my mind? Like, what’s going? Like, why? Like, well, I’m worried about, you know, this deal falling through. Why? Well, because so much of it’s outside of my control. Well, why? Because the company is chaos. Like, you know, like, what could I do about it? Well, I’ve already told literally everyone who will listen 10 times, that’s kind of getting you to a place where you are realizing that You sort of have two options, learn how to live in this chaos or find a new job because no one at the company cares. like when you start, mean, and we can learn to live in chaos. mean, a big part of my, I mean, I, I mean, I think this is probably true for all of us that are aging, but I care so much less now than I used to about things that are outside my control. And, know, 28 year old Matt Gerlach, who was like, trying to solve the world’s problems for everybody at every business that I worked with. I’m not that way anymore. I do what I can do. And I care more than the average person. But at end of the day, like, I can only care as much as the person above me. But, you know, I mean, you have to ask yourself, like, is there something that you can do to remedy this, you know, and a lot of times, I mean, you know, and I want to be sensitive, and this is more your department, Dana, but like, you know, I mean, I do believe that there is some, um, that the high majority of people who are taking medication to deal with anxiety and stuff like this are numbing a discomfort that needs remedy, you know, and I also am not saying that that’s a bad thing. It’s just like, you know, if the medication is not working, I mean, it’s probably, there’s probably something that’s below that that needs to be remedied. Like I just read a book right now. by a woman named Erin French. She has this magnificent thing called the Lost Kitchen. I think it’s like Times Magazine top 10 places in the world to travel to to meet, mean, to eat. The story is magnificent and I’m bringing this up really intentionally. She was in a marriage that was really, really, really affecting her and she got hooked on prescription medication and alcohol and it got so bad that she lost the restaurant. She lost her child for a while. And she was taking like an I mean, a very excessive amount of medication, you know. And it like it wasn’t working. So like, if you are trying everything in your toolbox, and it’s not working, that’s an invitation to make a change, you know, like where I’ll give a small example of myself, like these, you know, I mean, I’m on this entrepreneurial journey, we are all feeling this imposter syndrome, we are all struggling. And like, I wait, I mean, I’ve actually been like, really kind of great these past few days. But like, there’s been a couple days recently that I haven’t been so great. And then like, I’m like, you know, am I like, I mean, am I going down the wrong path? Do I need to do something? And then I go for a run. And I’m like, Oh, my God, like, that totally worked. So we can try things out like that, you know, and we I mean, I’m a I’m a big proponent and just going for a walk. Like, it’s easy, it’s accessible, you’re in nature, you’re moving the body, you’re getting fresh air. think we underestimate how much of these drinking water, so many of these things that are like so accessible that like actually do.

[Dana] (31:28)
Excellent points. It’s much better to start because I’m a holistic thinker and our mind impacts our body impacts it all impacts in the spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically, it’s all together. So it’s much better like what you’re describing to start with something healthy and before you reach out to some kind of prescription medications. Obviously, those are there for a reason. But sometimes if we can do yoga consistently, we can go out for a walk consistently, we can do exercise or drink more water or eat more vegetables or eat more proteins. And let’s start with that first and kind of let our body sort of flush out and get, you know, leveled out first before we consider something else. And I’ll say one other thing about that and then I’ll wrap us up. You know, in therapy, when I have a patient come in, research indicates that people that have external locus of control, which their control center is outside of themselves, which would be like pills or cigarettes or alcohol, anything that’s outside of us that we’re trying to use to control what’s going on internally, that actually increases anxiety versus internal locus of control. So the people that perceive their control center being inside themselves, their coping strategies, their mental strategies, what they’re doing that nobody can take from them and they have with them at all times, that decreases anxiety. So I feel like we definitely need to start with that first before we reach out to something outside. So Matt, I know… that I’ve got listeners right now that are thinking, I need to know more about what Matt Gerlach has to say. He’s so interesting and he’s had so much experience. So what I have here is for them to go to mattgerlach.com. Is this correct? Okay. And guys, I’ll put this in the show notes. And Matt, I did want to ask you, it’s gonna be a few months before I get this episode launched. So… If your book i mean let me know when your book is published i mean it might just kind of coincide with when the podcast airs.

[Matt] (33:47)
It may. That’s a little ambitious, we will. A book is an interesting journey. it’s not like, I mean, a lot of my journey has also been like being kind to myself and not rushing things and trusting that life has. I mean, if you were, can’t believe that I’m saying this because like 20, I mean, 10 years ago, I would not have been able to relinquish control like this, but yeah, I mean, there’s a process for everything.

[Dana] (33:49)
No I’ll tell you, when I first started on this entrepreneurial journey, I made a promise. It was actually a promise to God. I said, I can’t promise much because there’s so much I don’t know, but I said, will promise one thing. I promise that I won’t quit. I’ve cried, I’ve screamed, I’ve thrown things across the room, I’ve crawled into a fetal position, I’ve done all those things. along this way, but I haven’t quit. Because I promised I wouldn’t. And I think it kind of reminds me of that to quote from Martin Luther King Jr. that says, you can’t fly, then run. If you can’t run, then walk. If you can’t walk, then crawl. But whatever you do, keep moving forward. And so I hear a lot of that in kind of what you’re saying today. Matt, thank you so much for spending your precious time and your energy and your effort. to come and be with me and my listeners and share with us your wisdom today. Thank you very much.

[Matt] (35:13)
Thank you. Can I say one more small thing? Great. Yeah, I mean, I think it’s creativity. Like that’s what you just said right now. Like, you know, that’s the journey. like, for me leaving this big paycheck, like it’s been, I’ve had to deal with some grief about the fact that I have kept myself in this place for along, for longer than my intuition wanted me to be there.

[Dana] (35:15)
Absolutely.

[Matt] (35:37)
funny, like I would rather do anything than be unfulfilled anymore. And you start to get creative, you know, like, what can I cut out financially? How could I make money doing things that feel good? And it’s been really beautiful. And with that, if anyone’s located in Los Angeles, I have started to do something really unique and special. I invite cool, interesting people to my home every other Friday for what I’m calling the Friday Brunch Club. And it’s free. I I’m looking to just meet really cool people and create a community around what I’m doing. So you can absolutely reach out to me. My email is matt at mattgerlach.com and I’d love to connect if you’re around and interested.

[Dana] (36:20)
That’s lovely. Thank you so much. I appreciate that so much. Listeners, I’m telling you right now, I know you’re thinking you have a best friend, you have a coworker, you have a family member that absolutely needs to hear what Matt Gerlach has to say. Take this episode, copy and paste the link, send it in text, send it in email, post it on your favorite social media sites so we can grow our Phoenix and Flame community. Let people know you’re not alone. I hope your day is going great. I hope the rest of your day is fantastic. I’m Dana on Phoenix and Flame.