How to Overcome Burnout (with Jessica Hallahan)

[Dana] (00:01)
Welcome friends, whether you’re out on a walk, running errands, or relaxing at home, it’s wonderful to connect with you. Joining us today is Jessica Hallahan. Now, Jessica was hospitalized at age 24 because of burnout. And she left that place in her life and built a whole business to help other people struggling with burnout. Jessica, welcome to Phoenix and Flame.

[Jessica] (00:36)
Thanks so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

[Dana] (00:38)
This is amazing. Now, just to give a little bit of background, you got your master’s in public health. You then became a speaker and a stress management health educator. And I want you to have plenty of time, because I’m interested in so many things, including what you founded, called Journey to Yourself. You even have a podcast by that name. So tell us, I’m interested in so many things, so we’re going to get to all of it. We’re just going to kind of weave in and out like we always do on Phoenix and Flame.

[Dana] (01:09)
Let’s just go back to your 24 years old. What was going on in your life? Because I think we can all say, because on Phoenix and Flame, we’re very honest, we’re just very blunt and we’re honest. We might as well be, because we’re all walking this journey. That was one of the main reasons why I wanted to do my podcast, was because I kept hearing people in my office saying, “I’m struggling with this, I’m struggling with that, but I feel like I’m the only one, Dana.” And I would know that they weren’t, but people don’t talk about it. They walk down the sidewalk by the mall, or they walk down the hallway, and they look like they’re all together. Well, they’re not. None of us are all together. Let’s just be brutally honest about that. And so this is a really fabulous platform just to say, gosh, this is me, this was my experience. So bring us alongside you. What was going on in your life? You were 24 years old and it got so bad. We all know that hospitals nowadays, especially with insurance, they don’t allow you inpatient unless you are pretty bad. Back in the day it was different, but now they’re not going to allow that, because they’re not going to pay for it. So what was going on with you at 24? How did burnout happen? What was your life like?

[Jessica] (02:24)
Yeah, so the nutshell story goes: I was leaving my nine to five and I was driving home to go to my part-time gig at night as a bartender. And typical fashion, I’m super tired, super exhausted, can’t keep my eyes open. And I get into a minor car accident, and my family said, “This is it, you have to go to the doctor.” And, you know, listeners are going, “you just fell asleep at the wheel, it happens.” Well, no. Among so many other things, I was covered in hives, I lost a lot of weight, maybe like 20-some pounds in a month. My knees were really swollen, they couldn’t fit into my jeans. And the list went on. And I’m from Pennsylvania, and we have this fun disease called Lyme disease, which we get from ticks. So ticks, they come on, they’re really tiny bites, we don’t even know. So I got tested for that, I don’t know, ten-something times. No, it was exaggerated. Thyroid disease, diabetes, I mean, you name it, I was getting tested for it there. I’m going to this doctor, that doctor, and finally I am just doubled over in so much pain because it wasn’t going to the bathroom. So they finally sent me to the doctors, and now I’m at the hospital for like a day or two. And the list went on, and finally I go back to my primary. I’m like, “I don’t know what to do anymore. This is it, I’m 24 years old.” Heads up, guys, no kids. And I don’t understand. So he’s looking at all the results, he’s like, “Okay, let’s start from the beginning. What is your day to day like?” I’m a boring 24-year-old. I wake up, I work out, I take care of the dogs, I have a house, I’m in a relationship, I have a full-time job, I have a part-time job at night, I go to full-time grad school, I’m balancing it all. And he goes, “Stop. What are you doing? Where are you making time for yourself?” I said, “No, I eat healthy and I work out, check, check.” He goes, “No, no, no. You’re not making time for you and processing your thoughts and feelings.” And so it was such a reality check of, oh, I have to sit and think and feel? This is a game changer, I have other things to do, I have to take care of other people, my friends need me, my relationship at the time needed me. What do you mean? So yeah, that was the beginning of the reality check for sure.

[Dana] (04:24)
“Ew, I’ve got other things to do!” Now you bring up a good point that’s worth hovering over for a moment: we, and especially women, not just women, but especially women, have a tendency to put ourselves last. And there are women out there, and I’ve run into them before, some of them are in my family, some, whatever, you know who you are, anyway, that kind of do the martyr thing, like, “Oh, look at all I’m doing for everyone.” And that’s a badge of honor. I would really like for us to hover over that for a moment, because I know there’s got to be some listeners out there that are either struggling with that and kind of wrestling with that idea, that archetype, and/or they know someone in their family or their friend group that is acting in that way. So what are your thoughts on how we tend to just put ourselves last?

[Jessica] (05:41)
Oh, this is it, this is why one of the reasons that led me to where I was at 24, right? The other thing is what I tell people: one, we think we have to do it, and that’s a piece within itself. But the other thing I tell people is that sometimes when we’re trying to do things for others, we kind of want that in return. “Well, I’ll do this, so then they’ll step up for me and I’ll do this.” And then they want this out of me, or “I’ll do this so they love me this way,” right? Again, very general outlook, but my mindset is: if I don’t make time for me, who will? That’s on me. If I want to go out to get sushi and my husband’s not a sushi eater, okay, well I can either kick my feet and say, “Well, I do all this stuff for you,” or I can go take my own self out, right?

[Jessica] (06:37)
I need to start to make the standards for myself. I set the standards for how others are to show up for me. So if I’m saying that I’m not worth hanging out with my own self for two minutes, who’s going to hang out with me for two minutes? So I need to set those standards for myself, and I need to start to take care of my own self.

[Dana] (06:47)
That’s fabulous, Jessica, and you just hit the nail on the head. One of the things I find myself chatting with people about, especially when we’re doing boundaries training, is that there’s one person on this planet who has been given the responsibility of keeping you together. Just one. It’s nobody else’s job to keep us together, it’s our job. And if we give up on that, there’s no one there to do it. It’s no one else’s job. And you mentioned the transactional kind of thing, which you see a lot. In healthy relationships it truly goes back and forth. Sometimes we’re the recipient of the support and encouragement, and other times we’re supporting someone else. And it weaves back and forth very nicely. But let’s just be honest, Jessica: sometimes we’re in situations where the relationships maybe aren’t necessarily all that healthy. Sometimes we’re in relationships with people that are somewhat self-absorbed or narcissistic or just dysfunctional. Maybe they’ve got a lot on their plate, they just can’t deal with everything, and so we have to watch out for ourselves. How do you feel like, in terms of stress management and dealing with burnout, the whole concept of transaction impacts things? Because I’m looking at it through a boundaries lens, and like you said so beautifully a few moments ago: okay, well, I’m going to do this for you, which means that you in turn are supposed to do something for me. Well, that’s not our call to make. If we want to do something for someone else, that’s our choice, but that doesn’t mean the other person is obligated to do it back. It’d be nice, wouldn’t it, and culturally appropriate most of the time. But let’s just be real about this: it’s not. Boundary-wise, we’re either going to choose to do something for someone or we’re not. That’s our choice, that’s our action. Whether or not they do it back is on them. So I’m wondering, from your perspective and your experience, how do you feel like this transactional dynamic, this transactional expectation, impacts people’s ability to manage their stress and deal with burnout?

[Jessica] (09:03)
Tell me if this answers your question. My brain just went to thinking about how, when we’re in these transactions, these boundaries, this accountability, this awareness, whatever you want to call it, we have to really love and care for who we are today. So a lot of times when we think about these transactional things, like, “Okay, well, I’m going to do this, I’m going to get this, eventually our relationship will grow and then I’ll be this person, or I’ll be this kind of mom,” right? We’re doing it for this future self, this future relationship that we want it to be. But before that even happens, we have to really love and care for who I am today. So I have to have that awareness of: if I stop growing, if I stop learning, this is it, this is just who you get, that’s it. Well, I love myself, that husband of mine, that best friend of mine, if they didn’t have that nice fancy job, if they didn’t keep growing and bettering themselves, would I still love them for who they are? Right? And so I bring this part up because that transaction, “if I do this, then this will happen, if I act this way, then this will happen,” it’s about control. When we’re thinking about stress or burnout, we like to be in control of certain things. So how am I bringing myself back to here and now, and just loving what I’ve got going on here and now?

[Dana] (10:41)
I love that, and I’m also a huge fan of mindfulness, just being in the moment, because Jessica, to be honest, and I think we both agree, we don’t have anything else but right now. Whatever happened to you 10 minutes ago is gone, and what’s going to happen even five minutes from now, we would like to know, we would like to think that we know what’s going to happen five minutes from now, and most of the time we’re going to be right, but you can’t guarantee it. The only reality that we have is in this very moment. And when you bring it down to just this very moment, life gets a little bit simpler in terms of what we’re actually having to manage, versus something that happened 15 minutes ago, something that may or may not happen 30 minutes from now. Sometimes all that takes our brain space away, it just takes our mental focus and divides it up into so many slices, we don’t have enough left to deal with what’s happening right now. That’s what I’m hearing you say: just loving ourselves in the moment and appreciating who we are right now.

[Jessica] (11:46)
Yeah, and I like that you brought up the word mindfulness, because I think, with social media and things like that, it can be a good buzzword. I love that, yes, it’s present moment awareness, all the fun things. The other piece is the definition of mindfulness is “without judgment.” So you’re talking about, okay, it happened 10 minutes ago, I’m not going to judge myself for it, I’m not going to judge them for it. We’re all human, we have all of these emotions, we all make mistakes, we’ve all said the wrong thing, we’ve all hurt somebody we didn’t mean to hurt, right? And I think we have to let go of that pressure of going, “I can no longer judge myself and I can no longer judge others.”

[Dana] (12:24)
Okay, this is awesome, because the more you’re talking, the more I’m thinking about stuff. You have an excellent point about judging. I’m not a huge fan of judging at all, ourselves or anybody else, I don’t see what it gains. And furthermore, when we start to judge ourselves, we get what I call jumping in the shame shower. And then we don’t want to face our stuff because we’re full of shame, and then we can’t change what we’re not even facing. So that just goes down to a bad place. But here’s the thing: when we’re dealing with other people, we don’t need to judge someone, right? They’re walking their own journey, they’re in their own yard. But what we do need to do is set boundaries. Because sometimes we’re in relationships with people, maybe coworkers, maybe friends, maybe family members, and they’re behaving in ways that are possibly dysfunctional, possibly disrespectful. Maybe they’re dealing with their own issues and they haven’t worked through some things, and it’s kind of splashing out on us. So we don’t need to judge anyone, because we haven’t walked in their shoes, we don’t know what’s going on inside of them, we don’t know what their past was like. And we have to set a boundary, because people think, “Well, I’m not going to judge, they had a hard childhood.” I hear this in my office sometimes. I’m like, “Yes, and they’re a grown adult right now, they need to accept.” So there’s a difference between making excuses versus explaining, and we have to put that boundary line. So in terms of dealing with people who are trying to manage their stress and deal with burnout, we’re talking about boundaries with ourself, but right now we’re talking about boundaries with other people, whether it’s a coworker or family situation, because it weaves back and forth. We don’t turn into one person at home and someone else at work, we are the same person inhabiting both those spaces, so lifting both sides up helps both sides. So what are your thoughts on setting a boundary with someone, not judging them? Have you seen situations, or talked to clients, where they didn’t set a boundary and what happened there? Or maybe they did set a boundary, and how did that play out for them?

[Jessica] (14:58)
Yeah, I think boundaries are amazing, and I want you guys to hear: boundaries are amazing, they’re really important, we definitely need them. I think the one thing we don’t always talk about with boundaries is what happens to the relationships. When I talk about boundaries, I’ve said boundaries and I’ve lost relationships because of that. The thing is, when we do that, what happens to us, and what we don’t realize, is that yeah, we might lose that relationship, and that sucks and that’s hurtful. But there’s a part of you that gets to grow and become this version of yourself that you weren’t before, and you get to learn these new things and experience life differently, and you get to grow new relationships because of it. It’s no longer begging for that relationship to be one way, it’s no longer going, “Oh, if they just did this and this, you’re not having it,” because there are boundaries, right? So when I talk about boundaries, what I like people to understand is that it’s a process. It’s not that I just set a boundary and everything’s gravy, and now I get to go play in the rainbows and butterflies garden. That’s not how it works. It’s understanding that when I set boundaries, things are going to change, but I always like to look at change as growth. I get to grow differently, and that is just so…

[Dana] (16:28)
That’s awesome. Because then, whether you’re in a work situation and you’re trying to function well on a team, or there’s this project you’ve been dying to do forever, let’s say for example there’s a coworker that for whatever reason keeps dumping his work on you. We all try to be team players, and we all understand, if this is a back-and-forth thing, sometimes maybe he had something to do, “I’m happy to help you out, I’m happy to be a team player, let me jump in and help you, I’ve got some extra time, let me help you with your stuff.” But we’re talking about something that’s a pattern. If a coworker keeps dumping and dumping just because he doesn’t want to do it, because he wants to go play pickleball, and his teammates are waiting for him, but he hasn’t allocated his time very well during the day, hasn’t been very efficient, so there’s still stuff he’s supposed to do. If you don’t have healthy boundaries and he keeps dumping on you, so you’re not getting home until after suppertime and your family, your partner, isn’t liking this very much, then you have to place a boundary with this individual. What I’m hearing you say is, number one: if that relationship ends, what have you lost? That’s my question. Specifically, what exactly have you lost? Because true friends, or true coworkers who are on your team working with you, they’re on your side too, and they will hear your no. They will hear you say, “I cannot do this right now.” They will hear that.

[Dana] (18:15)
But people who won’t hear that from you really aren’t your friend, they don’t have your best interest at heart. And also in that situation, I’m thinking someone could actually have the time to work on this wonderful project they’ve been dying to do, this research project they really had an interest in at work, but they can’t because they’re always being dumped on with this extra work by this other coworker who doesn’t want to go play pickleball instead of doing his job. What are your thoughts on those kinds of situations? Have you experienced that, or heard of other people going through similar situations?

[Jessica] (18:56)
Yeah, I think with those kinds of situations, one, it’s so real, we all have been there in some form or fashion. And the other thing is going back to not judging yourself, but being aware that you kind of created that habit, you allowed that boundary to be broken, you set that standard. So when you start to break that boundary, when, say, Bob emails you and says, “Hey, can you get this piece of the project done?” and it’s four-thirty on a Friday, you can say, “I love helping you out, this time I can’t.” I think a lot of times we think, “Well, I have to think of an excuse,” but if it’s not your job, you don’t have to do it. Of course, I want to help people, I would love when people help me, but it’s not an all-the-time thing. If it’s kind of a habit, a ritual, a consistency, you have now taken on a new piece of work, you have now added something else to your name tag. There’s a difference: it’s not just Bob leaving for vacation and going, “Oh my God, I didn’t get to email that company, can you just email them and wait for them?” Of course. It’s not saying no all the time, it’s becoming aware when you start to feel that friction, and you know when that happens: “Oh my God, here comes Bob again, he’s going to ask me.” Did it work again? Well, did you? Were you the one that kept saying yes?

[Dana] (20:22)
Mm-hmm.

[Jessica] (20:23)
We were, right? So it’s that accountability, that awareness. If you were able to say yes this whole time, you can also now say no.

[Dana] (20:28)
That’s it, that’s a fabulous point. We train people how to treat us. And so if there’s a coworker that keeps doing that, like you said, it’s because we’ve trained him to do that. Do you think that’s a helpful thing? Because on the surface, people who tend to behave in enabling ways, on the surface, it looks really kind, it looks very nice. But I challenge that: under the hood, it’s not kind or nice, it’s enabling and it’s not helpful. As you think about the example you just gave, what are your thoughts on someone who continues to do that? What kind of work environment are they contributing to? What kind of dynamic, and how does that play out with stress and burnout?

[Jessica] (21:25)
I think it goes back to what we were talking about at the very beginning: typically women, we will add more and more to our plate. “I want the promotion, I want them to realize I’m a hard worker, I want them to know that just because I have kids at home I can still show up to work every day, I want them to know I can do that presentation.” So we take on more work to try to prove that, when in reality, I just need to prove what I’m doing. Now, if somebody’s asking you to do something out of your task, I’m not saying say no, because I’ve learned a lot of things by stepping out of my comfort zone. I’ve done different groups, I’ve been at different companies, I’ve met new people because I tried something new, even though it was out of my job description or my comfort zone. So yes, taste it, go taste that new thing. But if you’re starting to feel that annoyance, if it’s not making you happy, and what I mean by that is: if my eye is starting to twitch, if every time Bob calls me I’m like, “Oh my God, hi Bob,” that is my awareness moment. I have to start to go, “Okay, what was I trying to get out of this? What do I want from this?” I have to have this self check-in. So say yes if it’s in your bandwidth, if it’s not, then it’s not time for you right now, and that’s okay, there will be another opportunity. But have those check-ins, right? That goes back to those boundaries of making time for myself. Am I happy? Do I still want to do this project? Am I actually really good at it? Or have I been using ChatGPT for half the stuff? So it’s just having that check-in, because yeah, say yes to things and then check in. Maybe I like being busy, maybe I need this distraction right now because my mom’s really sick, so this distraction is really perfect right now.

[Jessica] (23:21)
But maybe mom’s doing better now, and I need to go spend time with her because she’s out of the hospital. And when I picked up this project, okay, well now I communicate, now I set different boundaries. “Hey, I loved working on this project for so long, I have to go be with my mom, how can we find a balance so I can help with this project, but I can’t do as much?” But I have to have that own awareness and that own accountability, because Bob’s not going to know. It’s not Bob’s job to know mom’s home now, so I was just using it as a distraction. That’s not Bob’s job. Like we said in the beginning, I’m an adult, I speak up.

[Dana] (23:56)
That’s it. You have just teed up about three different things: check-in, flexibility, and mind reading. So I really think it’s a neat thing to point out: what you’re saying is boundaries are flexible, and they’re meant to be. It’s not some big huge thing, and this is in my keynote, some people have this myth that boundaries mean you’re running around screaming no at everybody, or you’ve erected this ten-foot-tall cinder block wall. That is not effective boundaries, that’s a myth. It’s more like what you’re describing, checking in with yourself: what is your life like right now? Like you mentioned, your mom is sick, or maybe you want a distraction, or maybe someone is just starting out at a company and they don’t have a lot to do, and they’re really eager to sink their teeth into other projects, and they have the time, and they’re so excited and passionate, maybe they’re working at a business that’s really aligned with their mission in life, so they want to work extra and they don’t care to meet someone for drinks or coffee outside of office hours because they’re so jazzed about the project. But then something else could happen, like you mentioned, and all of a sudden they can’t do all that. So I’m hearing you say: check in with yourself, what’s going on in your life, and flex your boundaries back and forth however you need to. I’m also wondering if you could share a little more about what happens when people are expecting others to read their mind.

[Jessica] (25:53)
I like to go old-fashioned with this: we can’t assume, because we all know what happens when you assume. Do you mind if I curse a little bit? When we assume, we make an ass out of you and me. So if I’m expecting mind reading, I’m now assuming, and we make an ass out of you and me. We don’t have time for assuming, assuming doesn’t get us anywhere. We have things to do, we have to check on the kids, we have to check on mom, we have to get this promotion. When I’m assuming, I’m wasting time.

[Dana] (26:00)
I curse too, go ahead. How many times, from your experience, whether personal or with clients, are dynamics really damaged because people are not communicating? Maybe they’re holding some upset, maybe they had a conversation with the boss or a coworker that really upset them, and they’re walking around with it inside and getting all passive-aggressive, going down to the break room, slamming coffee cups around, slamming the refrigerator door shut, giving people the stink eye when they walk down the hallway, but they’re not actually saying why they’re doing this, they’re not communicating it to the person. So they’re expecting someone to read their mind, and meanwhile they’re acting all passive-aggressive. What has been your experience with that, or the people you’ve dealt with?

[Jessica] (27:16)
Oh, that never happens (laughs). There’s a couple of things. Statistically, 80% of our work stress is caused by miscommunication. Just from not communicating, from miscommunicating, from a tone, from body language, from all the things, right? 80% of our work stress comes from miscommunication. So just think about how much of our stress at work could decrease if we just, I don’t know, opened our mouth in an assertive way, said what we needed, spoke up. Some of you guys might be listening like, “No, no, no, I speak up, I say what I want.” Great, but are we saying it in an effective way? Because there’s a difference. Am I watching my tone? Am I watching my body language when I’m speaking to people? Because 55% of communication is through body language. So if I’m sitting here with my hands crossed during this whole interview, you’re like, “Jess, relax, let go.”

[Jessica] (28:22)
Or if I had an attitude problem, like, “Well, you shouldn’t be stressed, just stop being stressed, have your boundaries.” Okay, guys, well, we’re just going to cut this interview short because she seems to have an attitude problem. So thinking about how I’m communicating, and if I am that person, because I have a couple of clients who are like this: “Well, I just need to process.” Okay, great, I think processing and putting your thoughts together is amazing. Am I giving myself time, or am I stomping around going, “Well, I have to process, so you have to now deal with me processing”? But I have my own stuff to deal with, I don’t need to deal with you because you are dealing with things. So going back to taking accountability: “Hey Dana, listen, I just had a meeting with the boss, I’m showing up the best I can, I’m here, it was just a really long meeting, give me a second, let me try to regroup and get refocused.” It would be different, right? “I’m still processing, I haven’t figured everything out that I want to say and do based on that meeting, but I’m communicating with you saying, hey, it’s swirling up here, it’s on the rabbit hole, I’m here, I might bounce in and out of the conversation because my brain’s kind of rattling.” And you’re like, “Oh, I know exactly that feeling, I’m making complete eye contact but my brain is racing.” “Thanks for letting me know, is there anything you need from me?” “No? Cool, we’ll just keep going. If you get distracted, communicate with me.” It’s a completely different conversation.

[Dana] (29:50)
It is, those are wonderful examples, and doesn’t it make such a huge difference? Like you said, 80% of work stress is from miscommunication. When you said that, I found myself wondering: okay, if someone, and I’ve noticed it’s when they’re out of balance, either they’re not communicating something and they should, they’re holding it in and getting all bitter and resentful and passive-aggressive, or they’re blasting it out inappropriately and disrespectfully. So the question is, what’s the balance? And the way I like to teach boundaries is: you have your yard that has your thoughts, feelings, and actions in it, and you’re responsible for it, and you get to change that stuff. And then there’s a property line and a fence, and on the other side of that fence are your neighbor’s thoughts, feelings, and actions that he or she is responsible for, and you cannot control those things. So it seems like sometimes we get those things reversed. Instead of owning and honoring our own opinions and giving them words to communicate in a respectful way, and being responsible with our own behavior and communicating respectfully like you said, instead we’re too concerned about, “Well, gosh, if I say it, the other person’s going to get all mad about it, they’re not going to like it, they might reject me, they might not talk to me anymore, they might not include me in the lunch room.” And so we’re not going to say it because we’re trying to manage the other person’s feelings. So when you’re practicing boundaries, it helps communication so much, because you’re honoring and taking responsibility for your own stuff and not spending so much time trying to people-please and keep the peace in someone else’s brain, which we don’t have any business trying to do. So it really helps you find that balance, like you mentioned. Jessica, I know people have heard things today and are thinking, “Oh my gosh.” How do they get ahold of you? I’m going to put all the stuff you gave me in the show notes, but if they want to take the next step with you, if they’re thinking, “I really like what she has to say, I really think I need to connect with her and learn more,” where do you want them to go?

[Jessica] (31:52)
Yeah, of course. So depending on where you’re at in your journey, a couple of things: I have free resources on my website, my blogs. Like you mentioned, I do have a podcast. I haven’t been as frequent on there, because I’ve been traveling a lot more, but the episodes are still on there. If you’re saying, “Listen, I need the next step,” I have journals on there as well. If you’re saying you just need reminders, I’m on LinkedIn and Instagram at Journey to Yourself 101. I just send out reminders of how to handle your stress this week, whether it’s boundary setting, what is mindfulness, all those things. And on my website, you can see how you can work with me, whether individual coaching, or workshops for your team or group, I’m there for you as well.

[Dana] (32:50)
Now your website, JourneyToYourself.net, okay, make sure I get on there. Jessica, thank you so much for spending your precious time and your energy and your expertise and your wisdom with myself and my listeners today. Thank you so much.

[Jessica] (32:55)
That’s correct. Thanks for having me, thanks for listening.

[Dana] (33:11)
This is awesome. Listeners, I’m sure you’ve heard multiple things today from Jessica that you’re thinking, “Oh my gosh, I have a best friend, I have a family member, I have a coworker that absolutely needs to hear this podcast.” They need to hear what Jessica and Dana were talking about. Take this podcast, copy and paste the link, send it through text, send it through email, put it on your favorite social media platform, so we can grow our Phoenix and Flame community and let people know: you are not alone. I hope you’ve had a great day, I hope the rest of your day goes fantastically. I’m Dana, on Phoenix and Flame.