How Narcissists Control You (Jackie Miller)

[Dana] (00:01)
Welcome friends, whether you’re out on a walk, running errands, or relaxing at home, it’s wonderful to connect with you. Joining us today is Jackie Miller. Jackie is a high conflict divorce coach and post-separation abuse strategist who helps women escape toxic entanglements, reclaim their energy, and win without playing the narcissist’s game. Jackie, welcome to Phoenix and Flame.

[Jackie] (00:37)
Thank you so much for having me, Dana. I’m super excited to be here.

[Dana] (00:40)
This is fantastic. Listeners, Jackie and I ran across one another because we’re both what we call speaker sisters from the Mic Drop Academy and Mic Drop Workshop. So that’s how we got to know one another, and we just got talking and thinking, oh my gosh, we can make the best podcast ever. Now Jackie, you say in your bio that you’re a survivor of a 16 and a half year emotionally, verbally and financially abusive marriage, a grueling two and a half year high conflict divorce, and you bring both lived experience and expert strategy to the table. Oh my goodness, we could start any one of those places, you have been through it. Take us back in the day, or whatever kind of experience comes to mind, and we’re just going to kind of weave around and go through that journey with you.

[Jackie] (01:40)
Sure, absolutely. Well, as you said, I was in a 16 and a half year abusive marriage, and it was the frog in boiling water. It was the whirlwind, love bombing, super fast courtship, immediately off to extravagant trips and all this stuff, and I was the best thing he’d ever met. I just couldn’t believe that this person, this knight in shining armor, came right into my life and said all the right things and did all the right things. We were married within 18 months. And then, now what I know is the devaluing stage started, and I was so confused, I just couldn’t believe what was happening. The death by a thousand paper cuts — I have stories for days, but the first time he got really, I’ll say violent, didn’t touch me, but that doesn’t matter, it’s still abuse — he started yelling at me. I was very pregnant, screaming, following me around the house with his finger in my face, because I had signed for a letter in the mail when the mailman came. If the mailman knocks at your door and asks you to sign for something, you sign it, why wouldn’t you? Well, it was something from the IRS. I had no idea, because he was up to all kinds of shenanigans, which I had no idea about.

[Jackie] (03:03)
That absolutely set him off. And I would just remember thinking, oh my God, who did I marry? I always say I kind of knew, after two years of marriage, that I was in trouble, and it took me another 14 and a half to get the courage to leave, Dana. It just sort of escalated from there. The financial abuse — I didn’t have the…

[Jackie] (03:25)
…best reasons why my name shouldn’t be on anything. He was an entrepreneur, and with his credit score and all this stuff, he just had these really believable reasons, as the years ticked by, as to why financially I should be nowhere near any of our accounts. And you believe this person because you love them, and they were this amazing person you met in the beginning who said and did all the right things, and he’s the expert, he’s the entrepreneur, I’m just the person who works at a corporate company, I’ve never started my own company, so I don’t understand, right? So he’s the expert. I was embarrassed for a long time to admit, Dana, that after 16 and a half years of marriage, nowhere in our financial life was there any evidence that we were even married or a couple. My name was nowhere, and it was all by design. I had zero access to money. I quit my job to stay home and raise our two daughters, which was…

[Jackie] (04:21)
…amazing that I could do that, but I was absolutely financially trapped. As the verbal abuse escalated, and the isolation escalated, and the put-downs and belittling and keeping me small — I was in trouble for even going out for two hours to meet my best girlfriends for a glass of wine. I got to the point where I just didn’t even ask anymore, or tell him I was going to go out. I just stopped going, because it was easier. I was a former shell of myself after 16 and a half years. And finally, when the infidelity got so blatant, his behavior got more and more bizarre. My girls were about nine and eleven or twelve, and I said, I can’t model this for my daughters, I can’t let them think that this is love, I can’t let them think that this is how their partner should treat them. I finally got up the courage to file for divorce. I didn’t plan ahead, I didn’t get help, I did it on an emotional whim, because that was the only way I had the courage to do it, when I was finally in this moment where I’m like, call an attorney, call an attorney, do it now. Looking back, I wish that I had found a Jackie Miller. We didn’t really exist back then, but that’s why I wanted to go out and be the person I wish that I had in my divorce.

[Jackie] (05:45)
I knew when I would file it would be hell, because of the person he was and because of the control he insisted on over my life. Being exposed in the court system, having to show his cards on our financial disclosures, was something he did not want to happen. So post-separation, when I had actually finally filed and was eventually out from under the same roof as him, he picked up different weapons, which abusers often do — in fact, they always do. And that’s the post-separation abuse, because it looks a little bit different. They don’t have the same control over you that they did before. So now we had the legal system: constant hearings, filing motions, and lies — blatant lies in the court system. Now I was a drunk. After being the best mom in the world for twelve and a half years to my girls, now I was a drunk who couldn’t take care of them, because I drank wine sometimes. Just the blatant lies that you are so gripped with fear might stick in the court system, that they might take your kids away, because they’re so willing to lie and play dirty, and it’s not who you are, you’re not going to fight that way. And they find the most insanely unbelievable, unethical attorney that will do their bidding. You’re just not you, you’re not going to fight that way, and you’re like, how is this going to end, where is this going to go? I remember finally moving into this little run-down rental house out of my previous dream home. It was okay, because I was away from him, I didn’t care. But it was a complete departure from my former life. And I remember, about a year and a half in…

[Jackie] (07:38)
…sort of coming to. It was the middle of the summer, I remember, and it was late in the afternoon, and I sort of came out of this fog and looked around and realized I was literally wandering around my weed-filled backyard, Dana. I looked around, still in my pajamas in the late afternoon, no shower, hadn’t eaten, still in my slippers. And I just thought, how did I get here? I can’t do this anymore, this is insanity, I am literally a zombie, I can’t be here for my girls. I’m so wrapped up in this mess, I’m so wrapped up in the injustice of it all. He’s winning. He completely cut me off financially, we have to go to court to get a penny, I can’t pay my attorneys and he’s got the most expensive one in Los Angeles. He’s living in his $11,000-a-month rental that he moved into, and I’m barely surviving, wondering how I’m going to pay my rent next month. How is this possible, how is this a thing? And what I sort of came to…

[Jackie] (08:39)
…was I had to really ask myself: Jackie, you’ve been through hard times before, maybe not like this, but you have been through hard times before. What did you do? What did you do to survive? I love that saying, Dana, have you ever heard the saying, congratulations, you’ve survived 100% of your worst days?

[Dana] (09:00)
I’ve seen that before, and it’s true.

[Jackie] (09:03)
I love that, because it’s true. In your darkest times, if somebody says that, you’re standing here — somehow you did it.

[Dana] (09:10)
Well, and I’m so glad you’re doing what you do, because of what I do for a living, I know that survival is relative — someone can say, well, I’m alive, but they might still have a lot of scarring, a lot of wounds from what they went through, and if they don’t take the time and create the space and honor themselves to go and look at those and process that stuff and treat those wounds they have sustained over all these years, then the likelihood that they’re going to walk forward and trip into another relationship that’s very similar is very high, because even though it’s abusive, it’s what’s familiar to them.

[Dana] (10:09)
And I see people in my practice quite a bit who are like, I’m so glad you’re here, let’s talk about this together. As you were explaining all of this, I know I have listeners who are thinking, oh my gosh — I have a cousin who went through something very similar, and her husband was a lawyer, and he reamed her out in the court system. He used the court system as a weapon, and I watched her go through years and years — they had six children — and because he was a lawyer he kind of had the inside scoop, and the court system allowed him to do that. So I watched her go through that, and I’ve heard of other women, I’ve come alongside women, and also men — I have a man I know of right now who is in a situation where it’s flipped, where the woman’s charging in with a lot of very curious, controlling, love-bombing kind of thing. I told him, dude, I’m so glad we’re sitting here having a conversation, because we need to talk, because you can’t see it. So, all right, I have several notes down based on the things you’ve shared so far, so let me just go one at a time and give you a chance to respond, then I’ll go down the list.

[Jackie] (11:05)
And then — yes, I have a male client later this afternoon. Yeah, it’s both.

[Dana] (11:30)
One of them: what was it like for you? This is something I hear a lot, and I experienced it some myself — my mother was a narcissist — and what I hear people going through, and what I myself experienced, is the covert aspect of it is just crap, right? Because you’re going through all of these things when you’re in a very close relationship with a narcissist and experiencing these things, but they know how to behave with other people, where other people in the community, even family members, don’t see it. They know how to hide it. So what was that experience like for you? Because what that does is cut you off from people that could understand and rally to your side. They don’t understand what your experience is. Like, what are you even talking about, what’s your problem, why are you being hateful, right?

[Jackie] (12:32)
Oh, yeah. You live in this big house, and you drive a great car, and he’s so fun, we go out, oh my God, he has everyone in stitches, he is hilarious, we have so much fun when we go out with him. When they come out with all these compliments about him, it does not leave a lot of opportunity or opening for you to share your true experiences about what life is like. In fact, you come across sounding crazy, often — and I do caution my own clients about who they talk to about these situations, find the right therapist, find the right coach, or find your one or two friends that get it. You cannot just tell everyone. Just don’t talk about it, because you look crazy, you look ungrateful,

[Jackie] (13:26)
…that you’re not appreciative of this great life, that you get to stay home and raise the kids while he works so hard and affords this for you. And there is no amount of money in the world that justifies enduring abuse. It’s very hard when they’re covert and they’re so charming and they have the mask on in public. Then, slowly over time, a couple of my friends saw the mask fall, and then I had

[Jackie] (13:55)
…the opportunity to talk with them about what’s really going on, and that finally felt good. But yeah, they’re great actors, which is also why they know exactly what they’re doing. Don’t let them blame it on their childhood. We all had stuff — I always say, get in line, we all had stuff in our childhood growing up. You do, and you don’t go around abusing people. So it’s a choice, and they’re choosing to behave that way. The fact that they can put that mask on in public,

[Jackie] (14:24)
…and take it off with you means they know exactly what they’re doing.

[Dana] (14:27)
And you bring up another point that is so key: accessing other people that you trust, and vetting them for safety, because some people you’re going to talk to and then you get wounded again, because you’re trying to share what happened and they don’t see it, they don’t understand it, and they think you’re being hateful and unforgiving and mean. So then not only do they not validate what you’re feeling, but they wound you with their words and their lack of support and their misunderstanding. So you have an excellent point in vetting people who you’re going to talk to, but it’s crucial to find people outside of that relationship with a narcissist so that they can give you another point of view.

[Jackie] (15:19)
Yes, absolutely. Another thing I like to point out to people is often you’ll endure these smear campaigns post-separation, whether it’s right there in the court system in front of the judge, or with family and friends, maybe that they didn’t necessarily do it with before. But this is a hard realization for people: they have been on that smear campaign trail since early, early on in the relationship. They know exactly what they’re doing.

[Jackie] (15:47)
Whether it’s a comment when you’re at a Christmas party and they’re like, oh, there she goes, having another glass of wine — they drop these little seeds, and people start thinking, why does she drink a lot? Or he would take my sister aside and try — thank God it never worked — but he’d be like, you have no idea what it’s like living with her these days, here I am, I’m what you get right now, I’m the happiest, fun-loving, people-pleasing, most easygoing person you could be around. But he would drop these comments, and my sisters would think, for a half a second, what’s going on with Jackie? And then they’d think, no, no, no, that’s not true. But darn, he tried. I remember standing in our kitchen once, a third-grade parent get-to-know-each-other thing for one of my kids at the beginning of the school year, standing with another couple we’d never met, and I remember he goes, we were talking about places to eat in town, and he goes, well, just ask Jackie where all the fun spots are, she knows all the bartenders in town. And I was like, what, what, where did that come from? And these people were so embarrassed and mortified, but that’s an example of the seed planting of the smear campaigns. I also had friends’ husbands who were like, remember when we took all the girls on that boat trip, father-daughter kind of thing — he was drinking a lot and telling them, you guys don’t know what it’s like to live with her. Luckily these two other husbands were like, does he really think we think she’s the problem? Thank God, but he tried. He tried.

[Dana] (17:27)
But he does, because that’s what a narcissist — they have their view, and that’s how they see it.

[Jackie] (17:34)
Yes, they’re the victim. They are the victim from day one, and it’s all you. So those smear campaigns have been going on a long time, because it’s how they achieve the isolation, then people step away from you. It’s how they continue to exert control, and they can control the narrative so much easier later on. So if you leave and the relationship blows up, now they’ve done all the groundwork,

[Jackie] (18:01)
…to keep the control going and keep their narrative spinning. And then also, for the third reason, just to show you they can. Look what I can do. I’m still in control, you don’t have any control, I do.

[Dana] (18:15)
Yeah, these relationships are so insidious. That’s why, like you were pointing out a few moments ago, it’s so important for someone in one of these relationships to find whether it’s a therapist or a coach, someone who can see it. It was almost like — I was thinking about some of the questions we were going to talk about today — it’s sort of like going through an obstacle course and you have goggles on that skew your vision, you can’t see clearly. It’s almost like a house of mirrors, a fun house where the mirror distorts everything, and those are the goggles you have on, and you’re asked to go through this obstacle course where…

[Jackie] (18:57)
I couldn’t see it exactly. 100%.

[Dana] (19:11)
…when you go and get a therapist or a coach, that person has clear vision. They see the obstacle course, and they see it with 20/20 vision. They don’t have the distorted goggles on like you do, from having to navigate this relationship for possibly years and years. So clinging to that person and trusting that they see it more clearly than you do, and having that person reflect back to you, “you are in a relationship with a narcissist, and this is what it looks like” — that is just like gold, really.

[Jackie] (19:50)
Yeah, it’s really a must, because especially in that post-separation abuse phase I was talking about, they’re going to try to keep you spinning at every turn, because they need your anxiety high, they need you in fight or flight, they need you hijacked emotionally so that you can’t think for yourself, so that you can’t stick up for yourself. So they’re going to try to trigger you at every turn. This is something I talk about at nauseam with clients, because being able to see the game that’s being played is the very first thing we need to accomplish, because it’s going to help you disengage, since they need you engaged. That text is meant to engage you, to keep you spinning, to keep you over-explaining yourself. It’s like you’re in shock that they’re accusing you of the very thing they do — the projection — and you’re just like, wait, that’s what you always do, I never did that. But they want you in that state of disbelief so that you cannot function and operate in a way that helps yourself. So you must see the game that’s being played, so that you can disengage from it. And I remember…

[Jackie] (21:12)
…actually having this out-of-body experience where it finally kind of dawned on me during my divorce. I remember I told him — he kept trying to get me on the phone or get me to meet him, because why? Then he could try to manipulate me. He needs to keep me in the game. When he felt me drifting or getting stronger, it would be full court press to try to get me back on the phone or get me to meet with him. And my attorney would be like, don’t do it, don’t do it.

[Jackie] (21:37)
Well, one time I finally agreed to get on the phone with him. I’ll never forget exactly where I was on the freeway, what car I was driving, where I was when I had this out-of-body experience where I was more like watching him speak rather than emotionally reacting in my body to what he was saying. I was watching his tactics, watching the manipulation and the subject changing — as soon as I was onto something, change the subject, something else. I was like, whoa, this is insane, this is what I lived with for almost 17 years, but I didn’t see it. I was so busy reacting, which is what he wanted. It was the most amazing epiphany, to watch the game being played from outside my body, looking down and like, wow. It was a level of healing

[Jackie] (22:31)
to be able to step outside and watch that manipulation. And that’s when I really started to get my control back.

[Dana] (22:37)
Oh girl, I love what you’re describing. I call some of that a hook. When I’m working with my patients and clients, I say, I want you to imagine a large rusty metal meat hook that you might see in a meat packing plant. So when you start setting healthy boundaries with this individual, they’re not going to like it, because they’re sensing that you’re pulling control back for yourself. So what they’ll do — what you so greatly described a few moments ago — is bring up words or topics or phrases designed to upset you. And I say, when that happens, I want you to literally imagine that large rusty metal meat hook dangling in front of you. If you engage with them on these topics, you have essentially jumped on that hook like a fish on a hook, and once you’ve jumped on it, guess who’s in control of that conversation? It’s not you. So instead, I want you to create just a few seconds where you stand there and see that large rusty metal meat hook dangling in front of you, and you just say to yourself, no, I don’t think so, and you don’t have to engage. Because that’s exactly what they do — they’ll deliberately say things to incite you, they’ll turn up the flame, what’s it going to take to get you back where they’re in control?

[Jackie] (24:13)
Absolutely, I love that visual, I’m going to use that, because the visual helps so much. I always tell them, look, what are the false narratives — they worked really hard to embed, basically brainwash, some false narratives during your relationship. What were they? They can usually tell me. One is, “I’m horrible with money, I’ve spent all the money,” when in actuality they’re really the most frugal, financially conscientious person, because they’re being financially controlled. But the narrative is, “I have to control you because you’re so not responsible with money.” That’s usually one. Another one is “you’re a cold fish in bed and I have to cheat” — basically, you don’t give it to me. So there are these themes, but clients can usually tell me what the narratives are. They worked really hard to install those narratives, because what they’ve basically done is give themselves a remote control, so that when they are losing control of you, they just go to that button with that narrative so they can trigger you. Like you said, that’s the meat hook, and then they just push the button. You no longer even live under the same roof, you’re trying to move on with your life, and they’re still over there with the remote control. Don’t let that button have the effect on you anymore. When you start to get stronger, they will not be happy — you’re going to put your boundary in place, and then we’re going to brace for impact, because they’re not going to be happy. So brace for

[Dana] (25:44)
Yeah, because setting the boundary is one thing, but then defending it is a totally different thing. When you’re training people on how to set boundaries, you have got to train not only in the setting of it — what do boundaries look like, what exactly does that mean, how do I set them, when do I set them — but also what happens when the other person shoves and tries to batter my boundary down, because it’s not if, it’s when that’s going to happen. Now, I did want to say, I was listening to you describe going to a therapist or a coach, and I’ll tell you something I’ve experienced: sometimes I’ll have a patient or client come to me, and then their narcissistic partner will want to attend a session.

[Jackie] (26:13)
It’s when. Oh, yes, they do.

[Dana] (26:38)
And they want to come in and control that whole thing, act all charming, and they want to be able to talk bad about the therapist or the coach afterward and dismiss the whole thing. So I’m very careful when I see someone and get the lay of the land, that the partner is coming to manipulate solely that whole space.

[Jackie] (27:15)
Absolutely. In fact, I always say they need information to be able to manipulate. They want to know what’s going on in that session, really bad. I had a client yesterday whose teenage daughter — he used to not allow the daughter to have the phone the mom gave her when she was at his house, but now the tides have turned when she’s at mom’s house.

[Jackie] (27:38)
Mom says, unless she needs it for homework or something, the phone has to get put away. Now he’s freaking out, because he can’t manipulate the daughter and he can’t get information to fracture that relationship between mother and daughter. He needs information, and he’s freaking out that he can’t get a hold of her and manipulate the situation. It’s very similar to a narcissistic partner wanting to come into that space. They want to try to control the narrative again, just like my ex wanting me on the phone, wanting to try to meet with me during the divorce. They need in there, because that means their partner is getting support, maybe getting advice that’s going to cause them to lose control. They need in that session, bad. They’re so cocky, they’re thinking, I can manipulate that therapist.

[Dana] (28:31)
Right, they do believe that the therapist isn’t seeing right through them the whole time.

[Jackie] (28:32)
They truly believe that, if I could just get in there. And you’re right, if they leave and didn’t make headway, they go home and that therapist is an idiot, they’re just stealing your money and don’t know what they’re talking about. I guarantee you, you’re getting bad-mouthed once they realize they couldn’t manipulate you.

[Dana] (28:47)
Oh my gosh. One of the things I thought about while you were talking earlier was something I’ve found helpful to recommend to people: creating, as soon as they decide to leave, a bullet point list of why, with very practical reasons, because they start doubting this, and a narcissist will come in and start chipping away, and then they start wondering, gosh, did I make the right choice, did I do the right thing? And then they start forgetting. It’s sort of like when you go through childbirth, and while you’re going through it you think, I’m never going to do this again, and then you forget all about it and go do it again, you forget the pain. I think creating that bullet list is so helpful to refer back to. I know that personally,

[Dana] (29:55)
because my relationship was with my mother, who was a narcissist, I had a Word document with her name on it, and then “tirade.” Every time something happened, I would go back and make an entry about exactly what happened, very fact-based. I included my emotions, because we need to honor our emotions and create space for them, they’re wonderful things, but also connected with facts about what exactly happened, what she did, what I did, what the response was. I would just have a moment where I would do a verbal-vomit tirade into that Word document about what I was feeling. I would keep going back, and whenever something happened, I would open up that document and add something. Then later, when I’d start going, oh gosh, am I being a bad daughter, am I being mean, am I being this — I would go back and read, read, read, read. I’m glad I wrote all this down, because you think you’re going to remember, but you don’t.

[Jackie] (30:54)
You don’t. It’s exactly like the childbirth thing, that’s a great analogy, and I love that tactic. I have a couple clients who have started doing three-by-five note cards. I helped run a support group where they called it their “I can’t believe this list” — all the just shocking things they did. You are insanely — do not beat yourself up. You are in a relationship with a master manipulator. It doesn’t matter how smart you are, it doesn’t matter how educated you are. These people are unbelievable manipulators and they will make you doubt yourself. So having that document is gold. That’s such a brilliant idea, Dana. I love it.

[Dana] (31:25)
Yes, and it’s nice to have validation. I actually had a psychologist tell me that my mother was a master manipulator, so once in a while, it doesn’t happen a lot, but once in a while you end up getting some validation feedback, and you hold those things like gold nuggets to your chest, because you need them so badly, they’re so few and far between because of the deception. Now, Jackie,

[Dana] (32:04)
unfortunately, we’re out of time today. I think we could probably do another one of these and create another podcast. But I want to make sure my listeners know where to get to you, because I know there are going to be listeners and viewers thinking, wow, I’m going through exactly what Jackie is describing, this is hellacious, she would understand, she’s been through it, I can tell she knows exactly what it feels like,

[Dana] (32:32)
and she’s on the other side of it. She has very specific tactics and practical strategies. How do I find her? Did you want them to go to jackiemillercoaching.com?

[Jackie] (32:41)
Absolutely. Go to jackiemillercoaching.com, and my contact information is all there. Also, my podcast is Out of Crazy Town, Your Guide to Divorcing a Narcissist. Almost all of my handles are “Out of Crazy Town,” whether it’s Instagram or TikTok, you can find me at outofcrazytown and feel free to DM me there as well. But jackiemillercoaching.com is where you can find a lot of information, you can also find my podcast there, it’s on every platform, and my blog. There’s even a pop-up box where you can give me your information, and I’ll send you a guide on when to respond to a narcissist and when to ignore, which is very much a boundary thing. So get your free guide on when to respond to a narcissist and when to ignore, at JackieMillerCoaching.com.

[Dana] (33:30)
Ha ha! That’s fabulous. Jackie, thank you so much for gracing us with your presence and your experience and your wisdom and your love and concern for everybody that’s listening right now. Thank you very much.

[Jackie] (33:53)
Oh, thank you for having me, Dana. It was such a pleasure to be here.

[Dana] (33:56)
Now listeners, know that you’re thinking, oh my gosh, I know the perfect person that needs to hear this, I’ve got a friend, I’ve got a coworker, I’ve got a family member that is going through this or has a friend that’s going through this. Take this podcast episode, copy and paste it in text and email, post it on your favorite social media sites so we can grow our Phoenix and Flame community and let people know you are not alone. I’m Dana, on Phoenix and Flame.