How to Reclaim Your Power from Shame (with Emma Lyons)

[Dana] (00:01)
Welcome friends. Whether you’re out on a walk, running errands, or relaxing at home, it’s wonderful to connect with you. Today we have Emma Lyons. Emma is a trauma-informed healer and founder of the Trauma Matrix, where she helps women break up with the shame voice that’s been sabotaging their success, relationships, and visibility for years. Emma, welcome to Phoenix in Flame.

[Emma] (00:35)
Thank you so much for having me. Great to be here.

[Dana] (00:39)
This is fantastic. I also have from your bio that you studied law and international human rights, and then you turned away from that life path, and it looked great on paper, but it felt like a slow death, and you spent the next decade deep in a healing world. Where in the world to begin? There’s so much that we can talk about, but I’d like for you to just have the freedom to start wherever you feel comfortable and share a little bit about

[Emma] (00:44)
Yeah, that’s right.

[Dana] (01:08)
your life journey, where it all started and how you got to be where you are right now.

[Emma] (01:14)
Well, I think lots of people might be able to relate to the pressure of feeling like you need to fill a certain role in order to be enough. I always felt like I needed to help people, and I thought, there’s so much misery in the world that law seems like a good place to start. So I did human rights law, I studied law and studied languages before that, and I somehow managed to get to the end of that. And then I realized, oh my God, this is definitely not what I want to do, after killing myself to get through the degree, because when something’s not aligned, it’s just like draining, like trying to wade through sludge, basically, that’s what it was like. And then I realized, I mean, I can’t do this, this is not what I’m supposed to do. And I kind of went into a quarter-life crisis, it’s kind of like a midlife crisis, but it’s

[Dana] (01:58)
Mm-hmm.

[Emma] (02:12)
around 28. And I was like, who am I, what’s the point, I felt like a complete failure. And I started looking for healing, and I found these modalities, and the yoga, and they really helped me. And I started to think this is what I’m here to do. But when I tried to break into it and make it a business, I really, really struggled, because I had so many barriers and blocks myself, they were piled on one after another. They weren’t the normal things, it was really, really deep for me. I had really internalized shame. And later, what I realized is that I thought my family was perfectly fine, but I realized I had this kind of awakening moment where I realized that my family was really dysfunctional, that my mom had quite a lot of covert narcissistic tendencies, and I was the scapegoat of that system. So from a young child, I had suicidal ideation, I internalized all these beliefs of “I’m ugly,” “I’m stupid,” “I’m useless,” “I’m a failure,” so many things like this. And I thought I was the problem, all that time. So having that awareness that it was the family dysfunction, the intergenerational trauma, that was really the catalyst for me to start working through these things. And, talking about boundaries here, I had to move away from my family and literally put a boundary in place and not be in contact with them so much, because I had been totally at their beck and call, and I needed to put that in place in order for me to feel safe. Having that realization and breaking free of that trauma and that shame, because as the scapegoat, you’re basically the landfill of the family dysfunction, it all gets dumped on you. And this is why scapegoats in these narcissistic and highly dysfunctional families end up really struggling, because it doesn’t end when you stop being a child and become an adult. You take that into your adulthood and find yourself in other situations where you’re scapegoated and where you’re the victim. And that’s why a lot of scapegoats end up going to therapy, because they really struggle with life.

[Dana] (04:11)
Mm-hmm.

[Emma] (04:39)
This has been my journey, and I discovered that I had internalized this narcissistic voice. This is what I talk about: it’s not just an inner critic, it’s actually a narcissist that so many people, especially women, internalize, using all the same strategies and tools that a narcissist uses. It gaslights you, it minimizes you, it invalidates you, it love-bombs you and then pulls you down. It ticks all the same boxes. I’ve been told all my life that this thing is trying to keep me safe. So having that awareness has really helped me recognize that that so-called inner critic is not me, and that it’s not trying to keep me safe, just like my mother. She used all the same strategies, and recognizing that is how I started breaking up from this shame voice and reclaiming my power. And now I help other women do the same thing, because so many people in the world have internalized this shame voice and have been gaslit to believe that this voice is a friend, or that we need to sit down with this shame and take it to therapy, have cucumber sandwiches and tea with it. And it’s so interesting, because with the narcissist outside, we’re told, don’t try to fight it, because that just gives it narcissistic supply. But even with the internalized narcissist, the so-called inner critic, we’re told to feel sorry for it, to perform for it, to treat it like a wounded child. And I did that for years and got nowhere, because shame is not a normal emotion, it’s not like rage or anxiety, you find something else underneath it. Under shame, there’s more shame, and it’s never ending. So I’m all about reclaiming your “shameless,” breaking up with that shame voice and reclaiming your power. And that’s so important, particularly for women, because so many women have internalized that voice and don’t even recognize what’s going on.

[Dana] (06:53)
Wow, you have just shared so much, and so much that sounds very applicable and relatable. I know that we have a lot of listeners right now who are thinking, she is speaking my life right now. As I’m listening to you describe all of that and thinking about my own journey, I have a narcissistic mother as well. Good times, good fun.

[Emma] (07:20)
Oh, snap. Yeah.

[Dana] (07:22)
I’m also thinking about my listeners and wondering, for you, when did you have the epiphany? When did you have the insight that your family dynamics were dysfunctional and you were suffering because of that? The reason why I’m asking is because lots of times when we’re raised in a family, for the longest time, that’s our normal. We don’t know

[Emma] (07:50)
Yes.

[Dana] (07:51)
necessarily that what’s going on, especially when you’re dealing with a covert narcissist, they are very subtle, and people outside of the family don’t really know what that person is doing, so you don’t really have backup, you don’t have validation, and you question yourself a lot. So I’m wondering, in your experience, when was it on your life journey that you realized your family dynamics

[Emma] (07:56)
Yes. Yes.

[Dana] (08:20)
were not particularly healthy, and you needed to set a boundary there so that you could create some health for yourself.

[Emma] (08:28)
Well, I had to break my leg. Life kind of shows you things. I broke my leg, I was in a motorbike accident, and I was off my feet, kind of bed-bound really, or in a wheelchair, hobbling around the place, for a good six months, really, because the bone was not aligning properly and I had to get further treatment. So that really was the catalyst for me to start feeling a bit uncomfortable with my mom not really respecting my boundaries. My body knew before I consciously knew what was going on, my body was like, this doesn’t feel good, because I was getting messages from her demanding that we have a phone call, but in a subtle way, like you’re saying, because my mom is very much a covert narcissist. I never thought she was a narcissist growing up, nobody would ever say that about my mother, because she’s not like your obvious type of narcissist, she’s not like your Donald Trump or someone, she seems fine. And for me, that was normal, all of my life I thought I was the problem, and that was what I internalized. So when I realized, I actually met someone else who I identified, was another woman, and she gaslit me one day, and I knew she was an echo of my mother. And then, we’re talking about the subconscious, I had a dream where I woke up and I didn’t know who I was from this dream. And that was really the catalyst that made me realize, all my life I’ve been living in this trance. And that was really the wake-up call from my subconscious that my mom had been driving the bus of my life all this time. And all of the healing that I had been doing, I think a lot of people might be able to relate to this,

[Emma] (10:26)
because a lot of healing work, while very good and effective, is just moving around the furniture when the house is on fire, feng shui-ing it. You’ve got to deal with the root problem, because I was doing all this healing and feeling a little bit better, and then I would just revert back, because this underlay was still present, and nothing would really stick while this was in place. So having that awareness, and really recognizing the systemic nature of this, I had to put in a boundary and say I cannot be in touch with you, because just saying “I need time,” she was not respecting that. I had to block her and basically say, I can’t talk to you anymore, this is not up for negotiation, because you cannot heal while you are standing in a toxic field. And I know that, because I’ve been trying to do that my whole life. So you have to create distance emotionally, energetically, and physically in order for you to heal from this thing.

[Dana] (11:31)
Wow, that’s a wonderful and helpful answer. As you’re talking, I’m thinking about this movie from a long time ago that you probably haven’t heard of. Have you ever heard the phrase, the call is coming from inside the house?

[Emma] (11:46)
Oh yes, I have heard that phrase.

[Dana] (11:48)
It was a horror movie, and the babysitter got this awful call, from this villain in the movie, and she asked the police to trace the call to find out where it was coming from. And then the police ended up calling her and saying, get out of the house, the call is coming from inside the house. The reason why I’m bringing this up is because you have an amazing point, that at some point along the way, the dysfunctional messages from the narcissist switch from being that external person to becoming internal. We internalize the messages, and the call at that point is coming from inside the house. So when I’m listening to you talk about what you’re saying, I’m thinking about how I teach boundaries, that in our yard, I like to use a yard analogy with a fence line between our yard and our neighbor’s yard.

[Emma] (12:33)
Yes.

[Dana] (12:47)
There’s a property line, and so we can look at our neighbor’s yard and say, okay, that’s not mine, those are their thoughts, their feelings, their actions, they belong to them, I didn’t cause them, I can’t control them, they’re not mine. But what’s in my yard are my thoughts, feelings, and actions. And so what I’m hearing you say is that at some point, what started out as coming from someone else in their yard is now in our own.

[Emma] (13:00)
Yeah.

[Dana] (13:15)
We internalize it, and it becomes the internal narcissist. Talk about that, and how you can help people understand whether they’ve internalized this message of narcissism and are now beating their own self up.

[Emma] (13:18)
We do. Exactly. Absolutely. I believe that everyone does that to some degree, especially in Western society, where I’ve realized that I’ve been writing about this on my Substack. Shame is kind of the foundation of our culture. We live in a very shame-based culture, where shame is normalized. And even if you talk to therapists and people who talk about shame, there are two types of shame that come up: toxic shame, and we can all agree that shame is toxic, in my opinion, because shame is the belief that “I’m bad,” right? That’s different from guilt, “I’ve done something bad.” But if you talk to therapists, or the common wisdom around shame, there’s a belief that there’s something called toxic shame, and also a thing called healthy shame. And I realized that that’s complete BS, because how can the belief that I’m bad ever be healthy? It doesn’t make any sense. But this is what we’re being gaslit to believe, even by people who are very clever on this topic, like Brene Brown. And again, we’re talking about the call coming from inside the house: these people are teaching from inside the shame system, they’re coming from inside the cage of shame that we’re all in. And because it’s so normalized and everywhere, they think it’s normal, it’s normal for what it is to be human. But no, it’s not. This is not what Jesus taught, by the way, this is what the church came in and taught with their shaming, this is how shame is always used to control people. And it’s often used with the narcissist, this is done under the guise of care, “I’m doing it because I care for you,” but it’s really “shut up, sit down, get back in your box.” So shame is always used in that way, and it’s so normalized. We use it against our kids, it’s used everywhere on social media, we see it everywhere we look. And of course we internalize it and use it against ourselves. If you look at hustle culture, men experience shame as well, it’s extremely shame-based, you’ve got to prove you’re a man, it’s all shame-based. So we have been gaslit to believe that we need a little bit of shame to make us better, and it’s a complete lie, because shame—

[Dana] (15:40)
Mm-hmm.

[Emma] (15:52)
it might work immediately, so if you shame a child, they stop doing what you don’t like, but make no mistake, you’re not doing it to protect the child, you’re doing it because what they’re doing makes you feel uncomfortable, and that’s true for all of us. The inner narcissist, as I say, says “I’m trying to protect you, that’s for you,” but no, it’s trying to protect itself, it’s got that facade of care, but it’s really all about control. So we all internalize this thing because it’s so pervasive, it’s just a matter of what degree you’re connected to it, and that goes for men as well as women. Men tend to be a little more disconnected from it, but it’s still present, still controlling them, but they might not be aware of it to the same degree as women. This is why women suffer more from imposter syndrome, because we’re more connected with our emotions in that way. But men are also driven by shame, and it’s not making us better, it’s actually making for toxic humans and toxic culture. Our culture is toxic because of shame, and all shame is toxic. And that’s kind of revolutionary to say, because unbelievably, that’s not the common wisdom out there. People are taught that even Brene Brown says, if you don’t experience shame, that means you’re a psychopath. But no, that’s not shame that’s making that, we need empathy, we need more empathy and connection. Shame actually shuts down empathy. So we don’t need more shaming, we need less of it, and we need to recognize that shame is a cultural implant that’s not serving us in any way. And this shaming voice, it’s an implant as well, it’s like a parasite, it’s not who you are, it has no power without you. When someone comes and tries to shame you, if I say to you, “I hate your blue jumper,” you’re just going to think I’m crazy. In order for you to experience shame, you need to have that inner narcissist voice that agrees with the hook. So the real freedom comes from liberating ourselves from this inner narcissist that we’ve internalized, and then we become unshamable. We’ve got to reclaim our shameless.

[Dana] (17:57)
Mm-hmm.

[Emma] (18:13)
We got to reclaim our shameless, because “shameless” is a word that’s used in the English language to talk about people who are behaving badly, but they’re not behaving free of shame. Every other word in the English language that ends in “-less” is about being free of the thing. But “shameless” means you’re behaving badly, you’re not behaving the way we want you to, because even linguistically, we’ve internalized this idea that we need a bit of shame in order to be a good human, in order to know who we are and behave well. And it’s just a lie.

[Dana] (18:47)
Wow, so much information, and I’m right on board, I hear exactly what you’re saying. And I’m also thinking about a book called The Four Agreements, by Don Miguel Ruiz. He was saying in that book, and you gave an excellent example of this earlier, that you can accuse somebody of something, but if they clearly know, like if you criticized me for wearing a blue jumper, but I know I’m not wearing a blue jumper,

[Emma] (18:58)
Yes. Yes.

[Dana] (19:15)
that’s not going to bother me at all, because clearly I don’t have a blue jumper. But if you were to say something like, “your earrings look ridiculous,” or “I can’t stand your glasses,” something I actually have, then that’s another story. We’re not going to be impacted by someone else’s insult unless there’s a part inside of us that secretly agrees

[Emma] (19:16)
Yeah. Yeah.

[Dana] (19:41)
with what they’re saying, that we already believe it. And so it just exacerbates that.

[Emma] (19:46)
And that part is the narcissist that we’ve internalized, it’s like the hook. I was talking to someone else the other day, and they were talking about when someone they knew, as a child, was a quite plump kid, and some guy went up to them and told them they shouldn’t be eating ice cream because they’re quite fat. And these girls didn’t believe that, so they just laughed at him. And this is the power of unhooking yourself from this internal narcissist. It’s not your friend, it’s not a critic, it’s not a wounded child, it’s a parasite. We do not love the parasite. If you have a parasite inside your body, you don’t send it love. And this is what we’re being told to do in therapy, to sit down with this thing and feel it and treat it like a wounded part. It is trying to destroy your life, it’s not trying to help you, it’s a narcissist that we’ve internalized. And the more we exorcise ourselves of this, the more we become shameless, we become unshamable, we reclaim our shameless. And nobody can shame us, because we don’t have that hook for them to hook into. No narcissist can come along and try with us, because we’re in our power, we are free of shame, and that’s what I teach people to do.

[Dana] (21:06)
Mm-hmm.

[Emma] (21:08)
To really reclaim your shameless, because there’s nothing wrong with who you are, you are not bad. We’ve all done bad things, we’ve all made mistakes, but that does not make you a bad thing. Shame, I reject it as a premise. We do not need shame, and shame does not help you get better. Shame minimizes you, you make yourself small, you make yourself less when you feel shame, even if it pushes you at the moment, it ends up always damaging.

[Dana] (21:43)
Yeah, I agree with you 100%, and you explain it so well. So I’m thinking, with the listeners, if there are some listeners, and I really can say not “if” but the listeners who are thinking, this is me, I’m walking this path, I’m feeling this shame that Emma is talking about, and I know this is kind of what you teach, and we’re absolutely going to give them, before we finish talking, a way they can get in contact with you to learn more from you. What is maybe one or two little takeaways that you could share with someone that’s listening, who’s like, I really hear what Emma’s saying and I think it’s a good idea, but I don’t know how to do that, I feel overrun with shame, I feel like I have shame falling out of my ears, and I don’t know how to disconnect myself from this

[Emma] (22:28)
We got him. Yeah.

[Dana] (22:41)
shame entity? What is one or two things you could suggest to them that they might consider doing, thinking, feeling, fill in the blank.

[Emma] (22:52)
Well, first of all, like I said earlier in the conversation, recognize that shame is pervasive, we’re swimming in it, it’s everywhere. So the fact that you feel like shame is everywhere and it’s pulling you down, that’s normal, well, it’s not normal, but in our culture, in Western culture, it’s everywhere, it’s pervasive, like fish swimming in it, and it’s so normalized. So I just want to validate people there: if you’re feeling, experiencing shame, that’s right, because the world is extremely shaming. But I have a system for helping people to really break out of that, and it’s really simple, but it takes a bit of practice. And it also requires, well, it’s helpful to find someone to help you who can see you without that shame, or a community of people who are willing to come out of that shame, because shame is so normalized that if you go back into society, you can be pulled back into it. So BREAK is my acronym. So B, you want to, when you’ve experienced the shame, recognize that it isn’t your voice, it’s like a spell, it’s like a pattern, it’s like we’ve all been walking around in this trance state. And when it says, “oh my God, you’ve got such a big nose,” or “you’re so ugly,” whatever it’s saying, catch it, interrupt it, and name it. Recognize that this is the trance, it’s like we’re all under this magical spell, and that disrupts the loop instantly, because part of the reason why we get pulled in is because we think this thing is us, or this voice is me, or it’s my higher self, or it’s my inner critic that just wants to keep me safe. So that’s B. Then you want R, refuse to engage. This is huge. You don’t, with the narcissist outside, you don’t explain, you don’t engage. Dr. Ramani, the narcissist expert, talks about DEEP: don’t defend, don’t explain, don’t engage, don’t personalize. And with the voice, or with the energy, the feeling, you don’t want to defend yourself, because you just give it more narcissistic supply. You simply say, “not today, not today.” It doesn’t know any politeness or courtesy, it certainly hasn’t been polite to me. So you don’t owe it anything. Then you go on to E, which is expose the lie: call out the shame-based programming, recognize that it’s all about controlling you and that it’s not your story, and speaking that really disarms its power. Then you go on to A, which is really coming back into your body, anchoring your truth, feel your breath, plant your feet, say your name, the year, remind your nervous system that you’re safe, that you’re sovereign, that you’re here, because shame takes you out of your body. And then K, the final step, kick it out, shake it out, this is not mine, you want to evict the spell from your body and mind because it’s not you, it’s like a parasite that’s sucking you dry. Goodbye, shame, goodbye performance, goodbye ghost voice, it has nothing on you unless you give it your power.

[Dana] (26:15)
Wow, I love that acronym, acronyms really help us so much to remember what it is that we need to be doing. That’s very, very powerful. Now there’s a couple of questions that I wanted to ask. One of them is, why do you believe it’s so hard for women to feel safe receiving wealth or visibility?

[Emma] (26:29)
Yes. Yeah, well again, it all comes down to this shame, this idea that it’s not safe to shine, that it’s not safe to receive, as if we were brought up in narcissistic families, and we were all brought up in a narcissistic world, when we open up, we get attacked, somebody rejects us, they tell us we’re too much or not enough or whatever. So your nervous system is, this is why, I used to do minds at work, but I’ve realized it’s not just about the mind, it’s about your whole body. Your whole nervous system is tensing up, because it’s not safe to open, to receive. So really, it’s about receiving and being visible. For me and you, brought up in narcissistic families, I became invisible. I was also the invisible child, that’s how I survived the system. That didn’t just disappear when I became an adult, I really struggled to do my first Facebook Live. And even when I was showing up consistently to get that connection, to get things working, that took a lot of inner work, because even though I was showing up, we might still be hiding on some level, we might still be afraid of success. So we’ve got to work on these beliefs, fear of opening, fear of being out of control, because we’ve been so taught that we have to hold on in order to keep safe, because that has been the reality for so many of us, especially sensitive women. It’s difficult, because we become sensitive, empathic women in these dysfunctional societies. Empathy gets distorted into hypervigilance, and we’re constantly, how’s everyone, is everyone okay, oh my God, am I going to be attacked, and we need to

[Dana] (28:15)
Mm-hmm.

[Emma] (28:36)
rewire that so we can come back to the gift of empathy, because empathy is amazing, empathy allows us to connect with other humans and come out of this dysfunctional response, where we’re constantly going around in survival mode, in tension, bracing ourselves for the next attack. And if anyone is recognizing this, it’s not your fault, but it is all our responsibility to come out of this trance, and we can do it one by one. That’s how we’re going to change the world, because I certainly had no models of people living shamelessly, and you can be that for someone else, if you decide to cast off this cloak of shame that you’ve been wearing your whole life.

[Dana] (29:24)
I love that, that you can be that for somebody else. I wanted to toss out two things that I was thinking about when you were talking just then, and then I want to make sure that my listeners know how to get access to you more. One of them is, I heard you say that we have, as women, we have the right and the responsibility, I could easily argue, to step into our own, instead of letting other people tell us “you’re too much, you’re too loud, you’re too this, you’re too that, you’re too aggressive,” and trying to tamp us down. And that also overflows into the workforce, in terms of wealth, because research has indicated that most of the reason, not the only reason, but one of the main reasons why men make more money than women, is because they ask for it.

[Emma] (29:55)
Oh yes.

[Dana] (30:17)
They feel like they deserve it, and they go and ask for it. Whereas women, because of shame and other things going on internally that you’ve mentioned earlier, they’re trying to make themselves smaller, make themselves quieter, make themselves more amenable to those around them. They can’t ever be that squeaky wheel. You’re not supposed to be loud, you’re not supposed to be abrasive, you’re not supposed to be obnoxious, you’re supposed to be easy to get along with and easy to

[Emma] (30:17)
Yes.

[Dana] (30:46)
manipulate, and easy to be malleable. And someone that is doing that because of shame, they’re not going to walk into their boss’s office and say, I know what I bring to the table and I deserve to be paid more, I deserve a raise, I deserve a bonus. They’re not going to do that, and so then they’re not receiving those things.

[Emma] (30:50)
Yeah, 100%, I couldn’t agree with you more, Dana. Women, we’ve internalized the shame and we’re much more connected to it, and we’ve been taught to minimize, to people-please. Men haven’t been taught that to the same degree, women have been taught to be quiet, to be a “good girl.” Men have other conditioning, of course, they’ve been damaged by the system too, it’s like a narcissistic system that we’re living in, with narcissistic systems and structures everywhere. So it’s affected everyone, but particularly for women, this shame that we’ve internalized means that we don’t stand up for ourselves, we don’t put down boundaries, we don’t feel safe asking for what we want or what we need, and we just become these shrinking wallflowers, and that’s no way to live. We’ve got to come out of that, that’s your right and your responsibility too.

[Dana] (32:03)
Well, and I think for us, for Emma, you, myself, for other women like us, we have a responsibility to stand in our own and be exactly who we are, unapologetic, and be empathetic, but also own and create space for ourselves to be who we are in this world. And if someone else doesn’t like it, they can go do something different in their own yard, we have a right in our yard to put whatever we want. If we want to put a birdbath, if we want to put a hammock, we can, it’s our yard, and we have the right, I can argue the responsibility, to do that for ourselves and for the other women out there. So the women and men too who are listening right now and really loving what you have to say, and want to know more about you, want to connect more with you, what website

[Emma] (32:30)
No. Yes.

[Dana] (32:59)
or social media platform, where do you want them to go to access you?

[Emma] (33:04)
Well, I’m currently in the process of building a website for Trauma Matrix, but you can find me on social media platforms, it’s Trauma.Matrix, and I also have a Substack, Trauma Matrix, where I’ve been writing about the matrix of it. It’s not, it’s our own trauma that’s keeping us in this matrix and this illusion, and that’s the real problem, and that’s the only problem that we need to solve in order for us to really step into our power and reclaim our truth. It’s all about letting go of this shame that’s been keeping us, holding us prisoner and captive, and thinking we’re free within this is just insane. We’re like polishing the cage of shame and calling ourselves free. We need to open the door and step outside.

[Dana] (33:57)
I love it, I love that so much. Emma, thank you so much for spending your precious time and your energy and your wisdom and your experience with me and my listeners on Phoenix and Flame today. Thank you.

[Emma] (34:11)
You’re very welcome. I also forgot to say, I have a free gift for people if you’re interested in what we’re talking about here. It’s called 5 Signs It’s Time to Break Up With Your Inner Narcissist. So if you’ve been listening and thinking, oh my God, this is me, this inner critic is not just a thing I need to feel into in therapy, it’s actually more than that, this is going to give you the guide to really recognize that it’s time to break up with this, and also give you action steps to start doing that. So you can find that at tinyurl.com/nottodaynarc. Definitely check that out if you’ve been inspired by what you’re talking about, because otherwise this shame voice grows, it’s given more narcissistic supply, and this thing can become so malignant. And also one more thing I want to say, if you don’t deal with this parasite, you pass it down to your kids. So this isn’t just about you, you pass on what you don’t process. So we’re talking about responsibility, if you don’t want that for your kids, this is more than just nice to have.

[Dana] (35:30)
I agree with you 100%. This has been amazing. Thank you, Emma, so, so much.

[Emma] (35:38)
My pleasure, thank you so much.

[Dana] (35:40)
Now listeners, I know you have heard multiple things that Emma has said today that you’re thinking, oh my gosh, I have a friend, I have a relative, I have a coworker that needs to hear exactly what Emma Lyons said today on this podcast. Take the link to this podcast, copy and paste, send it in text, send it in email, put it on your favorite social media platforms so that we can grow our Phoenix and Flame community and let people know you are not alone. I hope your day has been great, I hope the rest of it goes fantastically. I’m Dana on Phoenix in Flame.