Why the Clearest Voice Wins

Dana Skaggs (00:01)
Welcome to Phoenix and Flame. If you are here for the first time, I’m so glad you’re here. If you’re returning, that’s amazing. And we have a fabulous guest with us today, Dr. Kristine Sickels. She spent 20 years climbing the corporate ladder, becoming the senior VP of marketing for a $2 billion portfolio of brands, including. Rubbermaid, Crock-Pot, Calphalon, Mr. Coffee, and Oster. However, along the way, she noticed a problem. She could not unsee. Women’s voices were often missing from the rooms where decisions got made. So she spent the second half of her career changing that. Kristine, welcome to Phoenix and Flame.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (01:01)
Thanks for having me. So excited to be here. So thank you.

Dana Skaggs (01:05)
Well, and guys, you’ll find out along the way also that Kristine and I know each other from the Mic Drop Academy, which is an amazing women’s public speaking. Well, it’s an academy that you go through where you learn all kinds of skills of how to feel more confident and comfortable speaking, whether it’s in front of a a PTA group or in front of a boardroom or wherever it must be. And Kristine is one of the wonderful coaches on that. And you’ll hear more about that on my mid-roll minute. all kinds of things. Mic drop workshop, boot camp, all kinds of fun stuff. Now, also, Kristine, you you have writing. You’re writing and you’re speaking and you’re coaching, and you help women to speak with clarity and confidence at work. So Tell us start wherever you would like. some of your experiences along the way or, why you decided to dig in when it finally hits you that something, something’s not right here. And and you started noticing that.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (02:12)
Yeah, well I would say that one, as you mentioned, I was in corporate America for over twenty years, and there were times when I would notice that we would be in a boardroom, a conference room, important meetings, and the experts in the room who oftentime were women weren’t speaking up about their ideas or their functional expertise. And they may have some information that would be really helpful to the conversation. And I saw one of two things happening. Either one, they were softening their point of view or maybe translating it or dialing it down a bit versus what they really wanted to say, or they just weren’t speaking up at all. And then as I left corporate America and started doing consulting work, and as you mentioned, started working with Mic Drop Workshop, I continued to see the same trend. So many women not using their voice, but yet had so many valuable things to say. And that’s where I decided that I wanted to write a book about it. that could be helpful to today’s generation, but also the next generation that’s coming in behind us to help women think about how to use their voices with power and intention at work.

Dana Skaggs (03:28)
I love that so much. And I have experienced the same thing. And I would say the vast majority of the women and men that are listening right now have been in these group scenarios where there are women that they knew from chats around the coffee pot or chats in the hallway, they knew that women had amazing things to share. And then they would go in a team meeting and would look over. And expect her to pipe up and she’s either just sitting there like this and they keep looking at her like, are you gonna say your thing, right? Or

Dr. Kristine Sickels (04:03)
Yeah.

Dana Skaggs (04:03)
she does, but she’s very soft-spoken. I’m wondering from your experience and your conversations, why do you feel like this has been the trend where they don’t speak up and if they do, it’s very soft-spoken. Why is that? And also an a second follow-up question to that is. What are the dynamics in the room? do you notice if it’s mostly women in the room, is it the same thing? If it’s co ed, is it the same thing? If it’s majority of men, is it the same thing? What have you noticed with that?

Dr. Kristine Sickels (04:33)
So first, I I identify in my book what I call the seven silencers, which I see are the main reasons that women identify why they don’t speak up in meetings. And so I’ll talk through some of them. We don’t have to go through all of them,

Dana Skaggs (04:49)
Fabulous.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (04:49)
but one is I’m afraid I’m gonna get a no. I have an idea and I am ready to like bring it to the organization. But I’ve been observing in other meetings what might what happened. And then all of a sudden if I get a no, it feels like a failure. And so I don’t want to speak up. Well, the thing that I would say about that is is that’s going to happen, right? as we sit in organizations, we’re not always going to get the yes. And I used to think that when I was young in my career, the best presentation I give is when everybody’s like, yes, let’s do

Dana Skaggs (05:22)
Yes.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (05:23)
it. We’ve all we’re going to take your idea just as it came. But the best, discussions, the best meetings are the ones where it’s actually dialogue and you’re getting feedback. And so if you are sitting in rooms where you’re always getting a yes or not a lot of feedback, it’s probably not a healthy culture because it’s just a disengaged group of people. The other thing I hear women say is, well, I want to give everyone the opportunity to speak. And we lead with humility or something that we think is kindness. But yet that keeps us from saying the thing that we want to say and bring into bring to the room. And so, yes, it’s great to get other people’s opinions and feedback, but don’t do that and sacrifice to your own. What else have I seen? Well, I’m afraid I’m gonna be perceived as the B-word if I speak up or I have a contrarian point of view. And sometimes I feel like we’re more concerned about being liked than. being the expert. And we can be both for sure. But some of that, and you’ve heard us talk about this in Mic Drop, some of that concern is so much about how are people going to think about me and perceive me versus, you know, thinking about the content and the value that we’re going to add and provide to others. And that that’s what’s important. And then a last one that I’d say, and then we can go to your second part of your question, I hear a lot of women say, well, I’m just not good at it. But and we know just from stats out there, 75% to 80% of people are afraid of public speaking. And that’s not just about speaking on stage. It’s in conference rooms, boardrooms. And so we identify, I’m just not good at it. And speaking is a muscle. It is not your identity forever. So we need to get over that. I’m not good at it. And we need to get in the reps. Get in the practice, find those low-risk opportunities that we can do it so that the big opportunities don’t feel so, huge and big and high risk. And then we just need to say, I gotta get good at it. Especially in these work environments, we’re paid for our opinion, our point of view. And if we don’t bring that into the room, we’re missing out the opportunity to really add value to the organization. And then to the second part of your conversation of just the dynamics in the room, some of it’s what I, just mentioned, but I would also say one of the things that I see is that a lot of times people who seem the most confident, speak the loudest, have the most gravitas, are the ones who are identified as wow, you know, they’re a great speaker or They have great professional or executive presence. And you know, we need to emulate that. And that dynamic, I think, is really confusing for a lot of women because I have seen a lot of women get feedback more on that, their executive presence and professional presence rather than their expertise and what they know and the work that they’ve done. And if you get that type of feedback, I’d be asking, what do you mean? when you say executive presence? Is it being able to communicate in high risk situations? Is it, giving recommendations that might be tough to a client? Or what is it that you really mean when you say executive presence? Give us some meat to actually be able to respond to. because being the loudest voice doesn’t mean you’re the most clear, doesn’t mean you know the most. and I love to say it’s not about being the loudest voice in the room. It’s about being the clearest, and how can we do that in each situation that

Dana Skaggs (09:13)
Mm-hmm. wow, those are fabulous answers. And so such practical ideas and really you can see yourself in each one of these. And as you’re talking, I’m I’m wondering, and I’m and I’m I’m imagining males versus females being in a room in in these executive meetings and women trying to represent and and trying to communicate what they know and their wisdom and their experience and their creativity. And I’m thinking in the examples that you gave, and I’m I’m in my mind, I’m just dividing out one of the things like taking a no. It just seems like for some reason, it seems as if the males, and I don’t know whether it’s practice because you mentioned that before, that sometimes we simply need to practice rather than fatalistically saying, I’m just not good at that. That just not me. Like I I just the other day I was in a conversation with someone and they were talking about me speaking in w in front of groups and that kind of stuff. And they said, Dana, I could never do what you do. And I’m like, You’re wrong. You can.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (10:20)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Dana Skaggs (10:23)
It’s not a fatalistic thing. Like you said, it’s about learning. And I think maybe males have had more opportunities to learn these tasks, these these skills and fall on their face and get back up. But it’s like I’m I’m going through my mind thinking, okay, taking a no, you know, putting in input in a team meeting and hearing the no feedback or Feeling like imagine a a male feeling this pressure, this compulsion to be kind. You don’t see that a tremendous amount, maybe, or or this this compulsion to feel I have to be liked. You don’t

Dr. Kristine Sickels (10:57)
Yes, yeah.

Dana Skaggs (10:57)
you don’t see that. What what is what has been your experience with that?

Dr. Kristine Sickels (11:01)
Yeah, well, there are differences, right, between male and female and how we show up. And there’s a lot of research that’s been done on just confidence in general and our own expertise. And, you know, women, we tend to wanna have things exactly a hundred percent right before we present, versus, you know, our male counterpoints counterparts might be okay with Knowing 80% of the information and then talking about it. And so I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves many times to be perfect or know exactly all the answers. But there is a different dynamic for sure. And one of the things that I would recommend that any woman does in a room, because beyond what you’ve just mentioned and what we talked about. know, we’ve all seen times when women have been talked over by men in certain situations, and I think sometimes it just happens like even unbeknownst to the man who’s doing it, or we’ve seen a woman give an idea or a point of view and not really get a lot of feedback, and then the man says it and people are like, great idea. When

Dana Skaggs (12:11)
Big

Dr. Kristine Sickels (12:11)
we see those things. We need to name them and bring them up. So if a man starts talking over to me, there’s a kind way to say, thank you, Joe, for speaking up. Can I please finish my point? I’d like to finish that and then I’ll hand over to you for anything else that you’d like to add, rather than letting it slip by in the room. And a lot of times, a man would absolutely appreciate that that because they may not even know that they’re doing it. it just may come naturally to be talking out loud and thinking out loud. Or when that idea that you mentioned has already been said, again, saying, Thank you, Joe, for reiterating what I just mentioned a few minutes ago.

Dana Skaggs (12:54)
I love it.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (12:55)
I love that. And you know, appreciate highlighting what I just said. And it’s not about being sarcastic or unkind, but it is naming what’s happening out there because I found and I recently did some consulting work and I saw this happening men talking over women in a in a training and Finally they just shut down. the women just were like, okay, I’ve been talked over so many times, I’m not gonna speak. And I went to the executive in the room, it was his team and said, Hey, this is a problem, that you’re observing. And he said, just quite honestly, thank you for bringing this up. I did not realize it in the moment, but now that I reflect and you brought it out up to me, you’re right. That was happening. And it’s something now that I will pay more attention to. And so I think a lot of times things happen, you know, we can’t always assume that it’s it’s purposeful. And if we just take the time to name what’s happening and Our male counterparts want us to succeed as well. Like in just naming some of those things, I think it can be really helpful and it helps people become aware of what’s happening in those situations.

Dana Skaggs (14:14)
And I love the perspective that you’re presenting of assuming the positive. Instead of

Dr. Kristine Sickels (14:19)
A hundred percent.

Dana Skaggs (14:20)
assuming some malicious intent, assume that our male counterparts do want us to succeed, but

Dr. Kristine Sickels (14:28)
Yeah.

Dana Skaggs (14:28)
they’re not aware. Let’s just since we don’t know for sure because we can’t read their mind. So we’re

Dr. Kristine Sickels (14:33)
Yes.

Dana Skaggs (14:33)
basically making shit up, right? We’re creating we’re creating a narrative. So as long as we’re creating a narrative about what our male counterparts are thinking, let’s create something positive that

Dr. Kristine Sickels (14:43)
Yes.

Dana Skaggs (14:44)
They’re not they don’t realize what they’re it opens kinda, Kristine, it makes me think of I talked to somebody one time who was Italian and he talked about what it was like at the dinner table. And he had several siblings. And he says, We’re all s we’re all grabbing and yelling and screaming

Dr. Kristine Sickels (14:59)
Okay.

Dana Skaggs (15:00)
and if you want to be part of the conversation, you’ve got to jump in there, you’ve got to talk, you’ve got to yell, you’ve got to grab your

Dr. Kristine Sickels (15:05)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dana Skaggs (15:07)
food, you know. You can’t just sit there and wait for someone to give you the space. You’ve got to jump in and grab it. So I think sometimes That’s what men are used to. And they’re like you said, not any kind of ill intent, but just

Dr. Kristine Sickels (15:20)
Yes.

Dana Skaggs (15:21)
they’re jumping in like they’re used to jumping in and they’re expecting the females to do that as well. And I wanted to point out one other thing that you said that I think is fabulous because I also think about when because I, you know, I’m a the queen of boundaries, you know, that’s my that’s my thing. I love it

Dr. Kristine Sickels (15:36)
Yes, yeah.

Dana Skaggs (15:38)
and my passion. And one of the things that is similar that people do. For example, when they’re not used to setting boundaries at all, they go sometimes from absolute nothing to way, way too far in the other extreme where they’re screaming no at everybody.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (15:53)
Yes.

Dana Skaggs (15:54)
And what I’m hearing you say is in these meetings, it’s much better, you know, you because you want to be professional, you want to assume the positive that rather than just going either screaming out and being perceived as the B-word, or just Shutting down altogether, those are the two extremes. What I’m hearing you say is you’re helping women to find that middle ground. You’re giving

Dr. Kristine Sickels (16:18)
Yes, yeah.

Dana Skaggs (16:19)
them tools, you’re giving them words, you’re giving them phrases to say, mindsets to adopt, so that they can inhabit that middle ground and not be on either extreme.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (16:29)
And it really is, Dana, about naming it. When we observe some of these things happening, to just name it with kindness. You don’t it’s your point. You don’t have to be angry. You don’t have to assume that people did something on purpose, interrupt you, etc. if it happens again and again, that’s a different story, but when we’re first, observing some of these things, just to name it and call it out and try to redirect the conversation. And you can do that with a lot of kindness and care, but candor.

Dana Skaggs (17:03)
Yeah, candor. And see, that’s that’s something else that ’cause some of the things that you’re saying overlaps with how I teach boundaries about my yard, and then there’s a property line, and then my neighbor’s yard. And so when in our yard is our thoughts, feelings, and actions, and then our neighbor’s yard are their thoughts, feelings, and actions. And there’s a property line between the two. And so when we when we give ourselves, we validate our own opinions. then we can be we can have candor, we can have truth, we can be direct. And also not owning our neighbor’s opinion. Because for example, if someone, if a female is direct, I’ve been in these situations myself. I have a rather direct personality. And sometimes someone might decide to perceive me as, you know, some kind of way. And and not, you know, and that’s not that’s not on me. And I think that That’s another thing that the the women in these situations can really adhere to and adopt, that their opinions matter and to present those in a very direct way, knowing that sometimes someone might decide to perceive you as to this or to that.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (18:21)
Yeah. And one of the things that I recommend I talk about in the book is before we even talk about communicating and when is the right time to speak up and what what are the you know ways that you can speak into things. And I know you do a lot of this work as well. I believe the foundation to great communication and using your voice is to actually first define your values. and understand what do you want to be known for as a leader, as a person, as a thought leader, whatever it may be, and to go through that work and then also communicate it to your team, to your colleagues, to people that you work with every day. So for me, I did that work quite some time ago. And I identify three values that are important to me as a leader, but then I share with my team and others how does that then influence my communication style and how I use my voice? And so the three for me are optimism. Part of that is because I’m a marketer by trade, but what does that mean when I communicate? You’re gonna hear me want to know what’s possible rather than why can’t we? And so that’s how I love to have a conversation when it’s rooted in optimism, let’s talk about what’s possible, what needs to be true in order to make this idea come to life or make this recommendation versus listing all the things of why we can’t. The second thing for me, and this is for me, is curiosity. And I just believe as a leader, no matter how long we’ve been in an industry, we need to ask questions, we need to be students of our field. And so I tell people, you’re gonna hear me ask a lot of questions. And when you have a senior title, a lot of times people think, well, that’s challenges. she doesn’t believe me, or she’s asking these questions because she’s like diving in and trying to gotcha. And I just say, You’re going to hear me ask a lot of questions because I’m curious, and it’s actually me just trying to learn. It’s not me making a judgment call. But people wouldn’t know that if I said that you know, ahead of time. And then lastly, I have decided that candor is something that I want to lean into. I know 50% of the people probably love it, and 50% of the people in the room do not, but I’ve made a decision that I believe. Candor is care. I want people to know where I stand. And so I just tell people, you are gonna hear me have an a point of view. Good, bad, great, gotta work on it. And we’re gonna do it though in context of the project or the idea, not about you, you know, as the individual. Now All of your listeners may have a whole different set of values, but I would be spending the time thinking about what those values are and how they then influence your communication style because that’s when you can show up using your voice authentically.

Dana Skaggs (21:17)
I like that. Just knowing what your stance is before you before you begin. Now, I do know that we’ve heard people call communication one of the soft skills. I would really like to hear your thoughts on on that. Like you you say it’s not a soft skill and and talk about why you think it’s you’re challenging this idea that communication is one of the softer skills.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (21:46)
Well, a couple of reasons. One, I I actually believe communication is a power skill. I I don’t think it’s a soft skill at all. And especially if we think about what’s happening in the world of AI and so many people are are using AI to communicate. and we can see it, right? Like we know when people are using it or not. The people who are going to rise above and be really successful in this world of AI are people who know how to communicate outside of it, right? And have a strong

Dana Skaggs (22:14)
Yes.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (22:15)
point of view and a voice and all of those things. But I would also say organizationally, why I think it is so important for leaders to build a culture of voices being heard is I believe. That silence or someone not speaking up is one of the biggest costs or line item on our PL that we can actually put a number to. What do I mean when I say that? Well, one, if you have a great idea, but you just feel like over time I’m not gonna keep bringing it up because I haven’t been listened to, whatever, that could have Driven revenue for the organization. You’ve identified a risk that’s gonna cost the organization something, but you don’t bring it up because you don’t feel comfortable speaking. Silence has a real cost in organizations. There’s a lot of case studies around this. One of my favorite is Nokia. That used to be the number one market share phone. And I don’t know if your listeners know that or not, depending on the demographic, it was the number one market share phone before Apple came out. And They had a culture though that the C-suite did not really want to hear the real news and what was going on. And they just decided, even when Apple came out with the first iPhone, we’ve got it, we’re fine. But middle management knew that it was a problem and that they needed new innovation and that they needed to focus on taking cost out of the product, et cetera. And because they did not use their voices, does anyone have a Nokia phone anymore? Yeah. And so

Dana Skaggs (23:53)
There might be some people listening going, Nokia, what?

Dr. Kristine Sickels (23:57)
what? exactly. And that’s a beautiful case study. You can read more about it where the culture of not encouraging people to use their voices was a big, big component to why they lost market share and did not develop new products to go after the iPhone.

Dana Skaggs (24:18)
Hmm. Wow. What an amazing example. So I’m thinking about this dynamic that you’re describing, and I’m thinking f twofold, one from the team member standpoint and one from the team lead. So what are some practical exercises or or practical behavior patterns that you would suggest for someone on either side, for the manager side that they could do to encourage communication? And what about if you’re on the other side? If you’re a you’re a team member, you’re not a manager, you’re a team member. What is something that you would suggest for them to do if they are one of these people that just feels like their throat is gripped and they just can’t quite speak? They haven’t been able to so far in these situations, but they have a comment, they have an observation that obviously people that were at worked at Nokia had, but they didn’t speak. So what what are some suggestions you would have for people on both sides of that?

Dr. Kristine Sickels (25:16)
Yeah. Well, on the leadership side, you’re exactly right. We have to encourage a culture of communication. And there are small things that I think any leader, business owner, C-suite can do, which is one, ensuring that they’re not the one always talking and that they encourage other voices to be heard. And so they are doing the round robin around the table, or if they notice, because many times if we have something to say, you’re gonna see it on our face, even if we don’t say anything. So if you are an observant leader to actually say, Dana, I see that you it seems like you have something that you want to add to this and just allow that space to happen. I also believe that I there’s a leader that I love that I’ve worked with before. I talk about her in my book. she has this little small practical thing that she does, but it’s very disarming. And she’s calls it put the moose on the table. And she has a moose, like a stuffed moose that she brings to every meeting. And she tells people, if you have something that you want to say, but you feel a little nervous about it, or you feel like it might be controversial, or other people may not agree, grab the moose. And say, I would like to put the moose on the table so that everyone knows how you’re feeling before you actually speak into it.

Dana Skaggs (26:48)
wow.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (26:49)
And it’s a beautiful, disarming thing. It’s silly. you’re picking, it’s yeah,

Dana Skaggs (26:53)
It’s funny. Yeah.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (26:54)
you’re picking up the stuffed moose. But now, no matter who you are, you feel comfortable that I’ve given you a forum or a tool or a way. To actually use my voice, but I am also telling you, this is risky. I’m being vulnerable. I’m taking a risk here. And I love

Dana Skaggs (27:12)
I love that.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (27:13)
that idea. You everybody could take that and do something different and make it their own, but it’s a beautiful way to just tell people that I want to hear from you. And if it feels scary, you know, pick up the moose and everyone will know. I love it.

Dana Skaggs (27:26)
wow. That is amazing. that could be used in a lot of scenarios.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (27:31)
Absolutely. And it’s simple, right?

Dana Skaggs (27:34)
So if you were a team member, let’s say there wasn’t a a moose option, or

Dr. Kristine Sickels (27:38)
Yes.

Dana Skaggs (27:39)
if you’re a team member, maybe you could suggest that to your, you know, your team lead. But if you are a team member sitting in there and you have a propensity to get silent and have, you know, have some some trouble having enough confidence to speak and to take that risk to lean go out. And intend to gear down and be silent. What would you what is one or two practical suggestions you would s give them if they’re listening right now?

Dr. Kristine Sickels (28:09)
don’t just wait for that meeting. And that’s what I do think makes it scary sometimes is we’re thinking about the boardroom, the conference room, these meetings that we’re going into, and that that’s where we’re gonna get our speaking reps or our confidence to speak up. And I would say start way before that. find low-risk situations where you can use your voice and that it’s not going to be controversial. There’s no reason to silence yourself. So what could that be? I am interacting with one of my colleagues. I see they did a fantastic job on a body of work. How many times do we actually forget to compliment someone like on the work that they’ve done?

Dana Skaggs (28:49)
That’s huge.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (28:51)
And it’s so Easy. So what if we just take that jump and that leap to say, Dana, You did a fantastic job on the project. Let me tell you a few things I love about it. That even may feel scary, but then I get it out, and you love hearing great feedback and you’re so appreciative. And so then I get a little bit more confident about speaking into things. So just find those low-risk situations. Like I even would say when you’re on planes or on trains or in a standing in a line, we have stopped talking to people. We have our heads down and

Dana Skaggs (29:26)
that’s huge.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (29:27)
Our phone

Dana Skaggs (29:27)
My gosh.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (29:28)
and just to have some daily dialogue about the magazine cover or the bad airport food or whatever it may be, like it just gets you comfortable like talking to people. Now, when we do get in those meetings, two things that I would consider one, any meeting that you go into, be prepared with a point of view about what Outcome do you want for yourself in that meeting? Is there something that you know needs to be said and identify that before you ever walk in the room? And when you then are in the room, I would recommend to think through how do I get that out early in the meeting instead of like holding on to it and then maybe I’ll say it at the end or maybe I’ll say it in the last five minutes, and then we just let the time go by. Get it out, get it out early. It’ll feel so much better. It’s gonna feel risky. I get it, but let’s get it out. But know ahead of time specifically what you sp wanna speak into. If you’re prepared for the topic, that’s gonna help you so much. And I would also say whether you decide to speak into something or not, I would be looking and I have this little framework in my book that’s the exactly what you’re saying. Like, what’s the risk versus benefit of using my voice? And if the risk is high, but there’s not a big benefit for the organization or the team of what I’m gonna say, maybe I don’t say anything. If the risk is high, but the benefit is high, like take that risk, right? And then low and the benefit, exactly. Grab the moose.

Dana Skaggs (30:58)
Grab the moose.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (31:02)
If the risk is low, but the benefit is high, like. speak into it. And you can even name that. hey, I know you I’m naming the moose. This might be controversial, but I have a differing point of view. And but here’s the value that I think it’s going to have for the organization. So I’d be doing some of that mental math in my head. Because to your point, you don’t need to speak in to everything. But you do need to make a decision on where you know your voice is going to matter. And to me that’s all about the value that it’s going to add to the team. to the organization, to the culture, to the results of the company. And that’s what we’re paid for when we’re sitting in companies. we are paid for our knowledge. And if we don’t speak into it, we’re actually not doing our job.

Dana Skaggs (31:51)
That’s an excellent point. And as you’re talking, I’m thinking of something that that I’ve done and I’ve recommended to other people, not necessarily in a work environment, but it definitely as you’re talking, I’m I’m thinking it it could work here, could help here, is that when we get very emotional or when our emotions get higher, our ability to be logical begins to decline. They are inverse. And so sometimes it I’ve done this myself. I’m I create little bullet points. If I’m go if I know I’m gonna go into a scenario and I think there’s a possibility I’m gonna get jacked up emotionally, if I’m gonna be afraid, if I’m gonna be scared, if I’m gonna be anxious, fill in the blank. Because as high our emotions go up, our ability to think logically and rationally start to decline. And then what happens if we don’t have a bullet point list that we prepared ahead of time? We’re sitting in the meeting and we know we want to say something and we know it’s important, but our brain starts scrambling. It starts going and starts short circuiting. And then we

Dr. Kristine Sickels (32:48)
Yeah, yeah, yes.

Dana Skaggs (32:52)
don’t feel comfortable speaking because we feel like we’re gonna sound like an idiot. And so

Dr. Kristine Sickels (32:56)
Yeah, yeah.

Dana Skaggs (32:57)
it’s like having some kind of like just really quick bullet points that keep you kind of like give you guardrails. So that when you if you are feeling emotional, if you are feeling upset or scared or whatever, that’s okay. You’ve got your bullet points. you don’t have

Dr. Kristine Sickels (33:12)
Yeah. I love

Dana Skaggs (33:13)
to it’s just so many times I’ve been in those scenarios. I’m thinking, I know I want to say something, I know it’s important. I remember going through all of this when I was sitting calmly by myself at my desk, but now I’m in this room when I need to say it, but my brain is short circuiting because of all of the emotions.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (33:31)
Love that. And I think two things I would just add to that is I think it’s really important to do that because it shows that there’s preparation and care that you’re coming into the discussion, the meeting, etc. And you know, so many of probably your listeners are just like back. to back to back, in meetings, but how can you find the time, to write those bullet points and really get your thoughts in order? Because if everything’s off the cuff to your point, it can be really challenging on what to speak into. And the other reason I love that is we all know what it feels like to walk out of a room and wish we would have said something.

Dana Skaggs (34:14)
Yes. worst. If I’m gonna just said it that way,

Dr. Kristine Sickels (34:16)
And that’s the worst. I wish I would have said that. And I know I

Dana Skaggs (34:22)
I know.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (34:24)
so having those notes is really helpful because then you have a point of view of what you want to say, and then you just gotta do it instead of walking out of room of a room going, I should have said that. Because you can’t get the time back.

Dana Skaggs (34:36)
I know. And you don’t have to have that awful fit. No, you can. You can’t reverse the time. Now, Kristine, I feel like we could talk quite a bit longer about this very important topic, but we’ve run out of time for today. I want to make sure

Dr. Kristine Sickels (34:47)
Yes.

Dana Skaggs (34:47)
that the listeners and the viewers are able to access you and your book. So talk more about that. You the title of your book and what it’s about and how they can get it, where they can buy it and how they can get access to you.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (35:02)
So the book is called The Clearest Voice in the Room: How to Speak with Power and Intention at Work. And you can find it on Amazon, whether that’s in book form, audible, or digital, you can do any of those versions. And it’s a great tool for anyone who wants to just think about how to speak at work. You can also find me at drchinespeaks.com. And what I love about the book, I do want to just say one little accolade that I’m proud of is it was just

Dana Skaggs (35:33)
Yes.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (35:34)
rated number one by Forbes for anyone who wants to be a powerful communicator. And I really appreciate that because my goal is to get this book in as many women’s hands and our male allies as well, and really understand how we can use our voices at work. And then as you mentioned, Dana, if you’re interested in being a public speaker, find us at micdropworkshop.com. We’re passionate about getting women on stages and having your story help you make an impact and an income.

Dana Skaggs (36:07)
that is fabulous. And I’m so proud of the the Forbes. that’s so exciting. And guys, it’s also gonna all this is gonna be in the show notes too. We’ll have you the quick link you can do just right from the show notes to be able to buy this fabulous book of of Kristine’s. Thank you so much, Kristine, for giving us your time and your wisdom and your experience and sharing with us some of your your thoughts and your solutions for very real situations that we women that we face.

Dr. Kristine Sickels (36:37)
Appreciate you, love being here and we could sat forever.

Dana Skaggs (36:40)
All right, listeners, viewers, I know that you have heard numerous things today from Kristine, and you’re thinking, I have a friend, I have a coworker, I have a family member that absolutely needs to hear what Kristine is saying. Take this podcast episode, copy and paste the link, send it in text, send it in email, post it on your favorite social media sites so we can grow. Our Phoenix and Flame community and let people know you are not alone. I hope your day has been fabulous. I hope the rest of your day is great. I’m Dana on Phoenix and Flame.