Stop Winging It: A Resilience Plan (with Dr. MH Pelletier)

[Dana] (00:01)
Welcome friends, whether you’re out on a walk, running errands, or relaxing at home, it’s wonderful to connect with you. Joining us today is Dr. Marie-Hélène Peltier. Throughout her career in business management and psychology, Dr. Peltier has spearheaded the dialogue on the crucial issues of leadership resilience and work performance.

[Dana] (00:31)
Now drawing on her extensive background in corporate, insurance, governance, and public sectors, she brings an international perspective and unique expertise on leadership. She has over 20 years of experience as a leadership psychologist, executive coach, and senior leader in the corporate, insurance, governance, and healthcare sectors. Dr. Peltier? Welcome to Phoenix in Flame.

[Marie-Hélène] (01:02)
Ah, thank you, Dana. So glad to be here.

[Dana] (01:06)
This is fantastic. Now, I did want to add as well because I think my listeners need to understand the scope of everything that you have accomplished, which is quite amazing, I must say. You are a member of the Global Clinical Practice Network of the World Health Organization, past director on the boards of the Canadian Psychological Association and the International Association of Applied Psychology. You presented and authored and co-authored

[Dana] (01:36)
a number of industry and academic publications and has won numerous academic and industry awards. I mean, you’ve done all these things. It’s, I think we need to, it’s fantastic. It’s just amazing, I believe, what you’ve accomplished.

[Marie-Hélène] (01:51)
Oh, well, thank you for saying that. I enjoyed everything I did and it’s, I find most of the time these opportunities, these recognitions in this case are good ways to continue the conversation. Can either inspire others to do whatever inspires them to do. But I do think overall for me anyway, they, I think speak to the different ways in which we can often contribute. to our field. And personally, that’s something that inspires me.

[Dana] (02:25)
Well, I’ll tell you what inspired me as well. I was reading your resilience plan book, which we’re going to get into in a few moments. And I’m telling you, I have to be honest and say I have about eight books going at the same time because I love, I have a lot of wonderful podcasts guests and they have these amazing books and I’m just digging in and I’m just reading all these. yours was that I couldn’t hardly put it down. I mean, I didn’t, I had so many other things to do, I’m telling you, but I just got

[Marie-Hélène] (02:30)
Aha!

[Dana] (02:54)
pulled in because I love the way you write. I love the examples that you give. It’s very practical. just I’m just thinking about what one of the things that you were saying in your book about your can your hike in the Canadian mountains. And I’m thinking about all kinds of things about resilience and obstacles to that and why we need a plan. And so just

[Marie-Hélène] (03:12)
Mm-hmm.

[Dana] (03:22)
start wherever you would like and we’re just going to kind of wind back and forth together because I have a lot of questions to ask you about all of this. And I did want to say too, I’m going to pipe this in before you start answering. When I was reading your book and I was reading the part about you already had your doctorate in psychology and then you go back to get your MBA and you’re sitting in class and the whole group and pretty much everyone else in the auditorium, let’s be honest, kind of thought the answer was one and you were like, oh, I don’t know, I think the answer is something else. I would just, the fact that your brain can work and the psychological thing and merging mental health in the corporate space, you’re like, you’re lined up to perfectly help and understand both of those sides. And that’s just amazing.

[Marie-Hélène] (04:15)
Thank you for saying that. I know it appears this way, it feels this way. Often people have also used the word translator in a way, right? To bring that psychology to the business side and bring the psychology, the business to the psychology side too. So yes, no, it created that, my natural interests in both, which I listened to, I guess, as I made some decisions that sometimes just looked like, oh, I’m just going to do that.

[Dana] (04:29)
Mm-hmm.

[Marie-Hélène] (04:42)
But I followed my interests and they came together nicely that way. Yeah.

[Dana] (04:45)
That’s fantastic. So what of all the things that you could have focused on? mean, for example, my passion is boundaries. And there’s a whole long story behind that. You know, there’s usually a reason why we end up because there’s any number of choices in mental health that you could have really brought to the forefront that impacts us in the corporate space. Why resilience?

[Marie-Hélène] (04:53)
Mm-hmm. Yes. And I do love boundaries too and talk about that a bit in my book as well. For me, it was, it’s a word, it’s a way of thinking that the professionals and leaders I work with, excuse me, tend to use quite a bit. And it’s mostly because they are such a… Yeah, high performer, getting so much done all day, every day, that kind of thing. So they are in that mode. And so while resilience is a continuum, of course, as is our overall mental health, just like physical health, the range in which someone who is currently still doing all the things and performing and getting stuff done, that range, if we’re going to layer on top of it, a perspective on maybe being proactive on how I support my own psychological health or resilience or mental health, then it’s going to have to do with resilience. It’s going to have to do with how do I prepare myself even better now for the additional next demands that will come my way. Both the ones that I wish I didn’t have, but I have to deal with them, and the ones I’m very happy to have. Because sometimes we don’t consider the things we wanted.

[Marie-Hélène] (06:34)
As demands. So you get a big promotion. You think, oh, I’ve been wanting this. It’s positive. Yes. And it still is a demand, which means building your resilience proactively will be good. So it’s the fact that the people I work with, that resonates for them. And also I love personally, anytime we can be proactive, don’t we? So that’s what made me focus on that area.

[Dana] (06:57)
Mm-hmm. That’s fantastic. And I noticed you have done a lot of leadership training and in the corporate space, sometimes there feels there’s a difference in, like you were saying a few moments ago, the demands from different levels of employees and the leaders tend to be, generally speaking, cut from a little bit of a different cloth. The ones that seek that out naturally, the ones that stay in that lane, that We’re not talking about the ones that accidentally get there and then quickly get back out, but the ones that are the natural leaders that pursue that. What have you noticed with them that is different? Their need for resilience versus another type of an employee?

[Marie-Hélène] (07:45)
Yeah. And you know, it’s interesting because on one hand, there are people in leadership roles and there’s a few things that tend to be a bit different about the nature of being in this role. At the same time, being in a situation of very high demands can also happen to an individual contributor who is dealing with a very large amount of demands. It could also happen to anyone in any of these roles who also… is dealing with a number of demands on the personal side. So even if say my role here may be individual contributor, I’ve been in it for a while, there is no additional huge large demands coming here, but huge large demands are coming on the personal side and therefore, well, now that also makes me very much needing even more resilience. So in a number of ways, it’s everyone. What is, I think, additional for leaders?

[Dana] (08:17)
Hmm.

[Marie-Hélène] (08:42)
is sometimes the perception of others that they don’t need us to take care of them. They’re paid more. They get to make decisions, right? That’s how it looks like from the outside. So they need to take care of us, but we don’t need to take care of them and they don’t need to take care of them either because they’re in such a great position. And seriously, even in the academic literature, for the longest time, there was research on For example, layoffs and the impacts of layoffs on us being laid off or potentially being laid off and all these kinds of things. And it is only in the recent years that there has been more research on the impact on the leader of laying people off. So I think the additional part of the additional challenge, and of course, yes, they are facing all the demands of their groups. And so there is a lot of demands there. And I think one of the big problems.

[Dana] (09:26)
Mmm.

[Marie-Hélène] (09:42)
and an opportunity I would say, is that perception from themselves and others that they don’t need anything. They do. Because say even in that particular example I was giving of layoffs. Okay. So if you’re the leader laying off people, every single conversation is demanding and the even better leaders tend to have some degree of empathy. That’s part of what makes us get people in our teams. So as we’re doing the layoffs, it’s impacting us. as leaders every single time. And the reality too, is that if you’ve been a leader and you’ve been doing this in a few different roles, you know that you could be laying people off today and being laid off by your boss tomorrow. So there’s nothing that easy in that situation. And it has to be recognized because, and that’s just a specific example, but it applies to many other areas of demands. We need to take care of our resilience as leaders and, and I would say…

[Marie-Hélène] (10:40)
As everyone, really.

[Dana] (10:42)
Absolutely. I understand exactly what you’re saying. Now, MH, how, when you’re dealing with someone who is a leader, they’re a go-getter, they’re usually pretty bright, and they’re saying, I got this, I got this. And how, I’m really curious as to how you have been able to soften them up, get them to open their eyes, get them to consider another viewpoint that yes, we know you’re capable, we know you’re bright and you’ve accomplished all these things. And also, you need to consider mental health, you need to consider the resilience and how much better you can be if you’re able to create some space for this. When usually they’re thinking, I don’t have time for that. I’ve got to do all of these things. I’m fine. When you can tell Coming down, it kind of reminds me of that hike you went on, if you want to take some time to talk about that. Day one and day eight, big difference. And so I’d really love for you to help our listeners kind of understand that and the corporate space, how do you get them to hear you and that it’s going to make a difference. It’s worth their time.

[Marie-Hélène] (11:58)
Yes. So a couple of, I mean, I spend a lot of chapter one talking about this, all the reasons why you might think you don’t need this. You do, you very much do. It’s established. But I mean, so a short answer could be look at the most senior leaders around you. So in your own organizations, people you know in your personal life, you will see that they are investing in their own mental health. You see them cycling, you see them making sure they take time to meditate. You see them putting boundaries. You see them doing all these things. It’s not just because they feel like it. No, it’s not because they don’t have other things to do. They do. But they make that time because they know this is what maintains the machine. This is what maintains their brain. What’s fabulous that you have right now in order to keep doing what you’re doing in a sustainable way, you need to nourish it. So that’s one short answer. The other analogy I sometimes use is… Alright, so if we were in a fully full business situation here, forget for right now your resilience, just we’re in a business situation and one of us has a fantastic idea for a new offering, product or service, would we just say great, great idea, let’s run with it, put it on the market now? Or would we say, okay, great idea, who else is offering anything close to this? How much are they charging for it? Who is buying it? Which forces in the near or far future might impact the demand for it? We will, we would look at all this. We would look at the context and therefore we would build a strategy. Which pillars are we going to invest in? How? What are the tactics that will allow us for, to launch this new offering in a successful way? So very planful, considering the context that will make this successful. And that’s the same thing here now. If we’re thinking about, let’s say we say, sure, sure, I would love it. I mean, why not? I don’t need it right now, but I get the logic and I trust the research. Fine. MH. Sure. Well, then it’s not just a matter of saying, oh yeah, we know, we know the things, the exercise, you know, moving my body. Okay. You know, meditation, eating well. Sure. I had a salad last week. It’s good. You know, whatever.

[Marie-Hélène] (14:25)
No, no, no, we need more than this. This is Olympic level. We need to pay attention to those choices on a daily basis. But the way you, look at this and implement the way I implement the way you implement today versus in three months, and same for me, that will change because our context changes. So my argument is not just argument, what I’ve done with my clients and actually led to the book, because they were saying, I wish I knew this sooner. So that led to me saying, oh.

[Dana] (14:54)
Mm-hmm.

[Marie-Hélène] (14:54)
Well, maybe I’ll write it in the book so people, someone, somewhere is going to know it sooner. Right? Then we bring those elements from strategy, looking at your specific values, your specific context. And I have very concrete, short, concise, doable worksheets, which we can have in the show notes if you want. They’re free. You can do them without the book or with the book, but they bring you through an organized way of creating. your strategic plan for now. And that’s what makes the difference.

[Dana] (15:27)
That is huge. And I noticed you pointed that out in your book, The Need for a Plan, instead of just saying, well, I’ll just wing it when I get there. I’ll just kind of wing it. And like you said, you had people that responded back to you and said, I wish I had known this before. I got very similar feedback for people that went through my boundaries group course. And there one man in particular said, Dana, if I had known this like 20 years ago, my entire life. would have been different. There’s so many problems that I had that I would not have had if I’d only known. And when I think about myself and being a psychotherapist and thinking about boundaries and training so many of my patients about this and having such a passion for it, it’s about the plan, knowing what the boundary rules are. How do they work? So that when whatever scenario you walk into, whether it’s personal, whether it’s professional, You understand the rules, you understand the lanes, you understand the yards, what belongs to whom. You’re not confused. You’re not overwhelmed. You’re comfortable. You’re at peace because you know what the plan is, regardless of what the other person is going to do. Because you understand boundaries, you’re comfortable with what your response can and will be and what you have a right to. You don’t have to be defensive. You don’t have to be overly responsive and extra to somebody because you know what the plan is. That’s what I heard when I was reading your book about

[Dana] (16:54)
us needing a plan of resilience. It can’t just be like, I’ll just wing it whenever something happens. Whenever I get overwhelmed, I’ll just figure it out. That seems to be a lot of what you’re saying is come up with it ahead of time. What is your resilience plan going to be?

[Marie-Hélène] (17:12)
Yes, yes. And we like to plan in so many other areas, really. Right. But it is this moment of just deliberately choosing much similar to what you would do say specifically to your boundaries. But that moment of having put together the reflection, the thinking about, okay, for me, how does that look like? And then yes, having that clarity on

[Dana] (17:16)
Yeah.

[Marie-Hélène] (17:39)
What will be the response? What will be the behavior? Uh, the choices that you will make when different situations happen. And initially you usually will work on simple, easy ones just to build the muscle in some ways, right? And then over time, be clear on or have more clarity. It doesn’t mean we’ll be 100 % clear at 100 % of the time, of course, but it sure will give a strong direction and…

[Dana] (17:53)
Mm-hmm.

[Marie-Hélène] (18:06)
For some people, it’s actually day and night compared to before, like you described. So it’s adding that lens, right, to how we think. We have so many lens already, we’re organized, we have the expertise we have in the field, we have like your clients and mine. All these things are there. And we’re just saying, and add one more lens. Add, for example, even more clarity on your boundaries, even more clarity on your strategic resilience plan. So that as these things happen, you come to them with the equipment. Because if you think of humans in general, we have thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, and it’s all nice to have thoughts and feelings or hope or intentions. The reality is what will make a difference ultimately is to connect all of these with a clear plan, with your actions.

[Dana] (18:40)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That’s it. 100 % MH. And I’m thinking too, when we are overwhelmed, say, example, we come across a big wreck, that’s not the time to be trying to figure out where our tools are. We need to have them ahead of time, you know, just like in our cars. We have jumper cables, you know, and if it’s in the middle of winter, right, we’re going to have maybe sand in the back. We’re going to have different ways of getting our cars out of ditches if it happens to slide on ice. If it happens to get in the snow, we might have some water bottles. We might have some snacks in there in case we get stuck. We have them in there. So if something goes wrong, we already have the tools with us to help us out. To me, that’s what having the plan, what you’re talking about, what that is. Because when we’re overwhelmed, our brain, we’re not going to have the mental energy or the capacity at that point to figure out all the tools then. We need to already have them, which that’s what I hear you saying. So they’ve got them on hand. So when they reach that point where they’re overwhelmed and they feel like, what’s going on right now? I can’t deal with this. They’ve got the tools to pull out and use because they’ve thought about it ahead of time. At least I think that’s what I hear you saying.

[Marie-Hélène] (20:00)
Yes. Yes. Yes. And it’s a really good example, what you’re talking about, about, uh, yeah, if we’re in winter, driving winter conditions, having the equipment we need, I very much have that too. And so, um, so here, if we go in mountain roads, that’s a good idea. But here’s the thing also is that, see, if you and I are going to drive in the winter, we’ve either done it enough or learned the hard way, whatever, but…

[Dana] (20:31)
Ha ha ha.

[Marie-Hélène] (20:42)
We are clear that we will bring this equipment because we consider winter driving a riskier situation than say summer condition driving. Part of what happens with sometimes high-level professionals and leaders is that they don’t see their situation as winter driving. They actually, they say, oh, you know, all these demands, I was built for this. I’ve been doing this for years, bring it on.

[Dana] (20:52)
Mm-hmm. too.

[Marie-Hélène] (21:12)
It’s good, it’s easy and it’s not even just coming from them, it’s coming from people around them. They’ll say things like, oh, you, Dana, we’ve seen you do tougher things. Like, you will support all of us. You are our rock. Like, yes. And so you get to a point where you’re thinking, well, yeah, I’m like in summer driving all day, every day, I can do this. And the reality… that will help us more realistically think about our context is that actually, there is, there’s snow outside or there’s a possibility of snow in higher elevations, which yeah, you’re going to drive in. So the equivalent for professionals and leaders is to just acknowledge for themselves that number one, no, we’re human, we’re not a rock. So the amount of demands could get to a point where it’s actually more than we can actually process. in our brain, so being realistic about this, being realistic about, yeah, we’re, we are equipped and experienced to deal really well with a number of these challenges and they still represent significant challenges. So if we now are more realistic about just acknowledging this, the change is nothing, we’re still really good, but we’re just saying, yeah, there are risks. Then that’s where we say, and therefore this is why I need. to take care of having my plan, having clarity on my boundaries, for example, having clarity on how am I going to sustain this right now and as I go in higher elevations. So yeah, you are at times in winter driving people.

[Dana] (22:53)
And I’m going to ask you about that at-risk thing in just a moment, but I want to because I was listening to you talk. I’m having a memory of I was on a podcast and a couple of times Judith Germain and her maverick leader. Have you ever heard the maverick paradox that she does? But she talks about how leaders are, can, the maverick, and of course she talked about socialized mavericks so that they’re not They’re not out there doing crazy town, right? But there’s still Mavericks and a lot of leaders. I don’t want to say a lot, but some do tend to follow that Maverick kind of personality style where they’re going to be out there doing what you’re describing, thinking, oh, you know, I’ve got this. There’s no such thing as there’s nothing I can’t handle. There’s no such thing as snow. I’ve got there’s no I don’t need any of this extra stuff until they’re stuck. And I know I’ve seen people that. in my practice and personally that tend to get on the higher echelon, not unusual for them. And you’re going to know this is much better than me from your research and such that some level of, how am I going to say this? You know, a diplomatic level of narcissism, let’s say, where, you know, really sometimes by the time people get to that level, that’s not uncommon to have that as part of their personality style. This really belief that I’ve got, I can do it, nobody else can, but I can. I can do all these things. And like you said, because that’s the feedback that they’ve received many times because their intelligence usually is up there, their creativity is up there. They just rise like cream to the top of their life and they’re going to keep pushing and pushing until they can’t, until they can’t do it anymore. And so I really like the way you’re talking about, know, helping them to kind of see even you are going to be in the snow sometimes. Which leads me back to my question that you’re the title, I loved it, of chapter one is you’re fabulous and at risk, which I think that’s exactly what we’re talking about. Could you tell us more about how that title came to be and You’re fabulous and at risk. That’s interesting.

[Marie-Hélène] (25:20)
Yeah, it came there to at least start with having clarity that I get it. Because sometimes there will be, what’s the word I’m looking for? Not as an assumption, but almost I believe that if you need to invest in your resilience, It is because you have a problem, you are not as strong. Unfortunately, you’re weak even. You’re not great somehow, and therefore it’s a problem you need to invest in, blah, blah, blah. And some people go from that perspective, and in fact, they’re not weak at all. But they think this way in part because sometimes society has planted that belief in them or other contexts they’ve been in. This is here to acknowledge that no, no, no, this is nothing to do with any of these things. You are fabulous. You have all the competencies, the life experiences, the professional experiences, the accomplishments. Yes, you’ve got all this. That’s established, none of that is going away and talking about your resilience is not going to make any of that go away. All we’re saying is, and given the additional… fabulous challenges you are seeking and you’re asked to deal with and you can and you will and you’re fabulous and all this. These things are, they’re demanding. They’re demanding cognitively, because you need to have even better creative ideas to make this work. They’re demanding emotionally because these are not easy. They will be demanding. They will be keeping you awake sometimes, they will be challenging you in ways that are more than you were thinking they would. And they will be demanding more of your living hours than you thought you would. So these demands will be there. And so therefore, if you do nothing on the resilient side, then you’re at risk because you’re getting on these wintry roads, if we come back to our image, and you’re thinking, I’m fabulous, period. saying is we’re fabulous and at risk if we don’t have a plan. Just make a plan and then you’re decreasing, you’re mitigating significantly your risks.

[Dana] (27:51)
Mm hmm. That’s that’s a wonderful explanation. And I I’m thinking about when you were describing your hike with your husband and the thing and you had such a good point is that life does not stay static. We can, especially for people who are natural leaders, who are natural mavericks, people, people that are going to push out and do sometimes. I don’t know, is it the Peter principle that we’re promoted to the level of our incompetence? Sometimes we’re just promoted and sometimes we push for that. But you you think about entrepreneurs, you think about people that are in there they’re pushing, that is going to change. The world is either going to change around because life, there’s nothing as constant as change. So our relationships, our life, our personal lives are going to change around us. and or we are going to change it. We are going to go to the office and we are going to push and we’re going to change. want to take that leadership position. We want to take on that challenge. We want to get that client. We want to do these things. So we’re pushing for change and also things are changing around us. So if we don’t have a plan, like you’re saying, for resilience, if we don’t have a plan to keep going, then we’re going to be like… I think of, remember sharing with a friend of mine because I’m like this somewhat myself and I push. And so I remember telling a friend of mine, I felt like someone had planted their hand in the small of my back and shoved me down into the mud because I had pushed myself to the point where I couldn’t do anymore on my own at that moment. And I just, I felt like I was figuratively laying there in the mud wondering, do I even want to get up? Should I just lay here?

[Dana] (29:46)
You know, this isn’t too bad just laying here in the mud. I could get used to this, but then after a while I’m bored. And then I’m like, this is boring. So then there’s, then you get back up and you stand back up and you keep going. And it’s kind of like that plan to how do we keep going? And we will be shoved down into the mud. If we push, it’s going to happen. And really, like I said, there’s twofold. There’s the environment that is going to change. people that we love are going to die, or there’s going to be divorces, or there’s going to be other changes in our life, and there’s also changes within us. And so that’s one reason why I feel like that your book on the resilience plan, having something in motion, having it ready to use, would be invaluable in these situations.

[Marie-Hélène] (30:37)
Yes, yes, It’s true that we’re seeing changes everywhere. They’ve been there, but they will continue to be there. One would argue, especially at work and actually in our professional lives, but just the fact that AI is coming with even more presence represents a change that will likely be even accelerated over time. So with this, and I’ll…

[Dana] (30:56)
Mmm.

[Marie-Hélène] (31:05)
It’s a complex conversation and all, but it certainly would qualify as a chronic demand that’s here and going to increase likely. So then if we are here dealing with all the demands, not thinking about change, but it’s happening and happening even more, we’re, we’re similar to how sometimes people who train a lot, say at the gym, they will train some of them at the limit of if they trained just a bit further they would hurt themselves, right? They’ll be at that very limit here. And often as professionals and leaders, that’s the range we’re in. That’s sort of just a little bit more and we’re on the other side. And so what we’re saying is, yeah, as we realize with even more clarity that there will be change and possibly even more change, let’s factor that in not as a, oh, now there is change, but more as a… going down a mountain in an electric vehicle where it charges with the change, basically. And let’s operate just further down from that line of overtraining so that we give ourselves that space where there is more change and it’s actually good as opposed to there’s more change and it’s a problem. So need to think about this in a realistic and if we do in a realistic way. It becomes almost a more positive way, a way that feels recharging as opposed to having to deal with that additional part that we wish we didn’t have, or that’s too much.

[Dana] (32:39)
I love that viewing it in a positive way, like viewing change as energizing, that if we have a plan in mind that when these things happen, they can actually fuel us and keep us going rather than something that is a burden that we have to deal with, that we have to take energy away from us to deal with, we can actually, if I hear you right, view the scenario as a means of charging us with more energy.

[Marie-Hélène] (33:06)
if we’ve planned for it, because it’s all nice to want that mindset. But if you say, I want that mindset and I’m going to stay operating on that line over here. That brings us back to our conversation earlier about the behavior needs to line up. We cannot just say, oh yeah, love that mindset. Cool. I’m going to see it positive. Yeah. Okay. Well, but your life is fully and overflowing here, professional and personal.

[Dana] (33:08)
if we planned. Yeah.

[Marie-Hélène] (33:34)
Where is the space to even take the energy from change and use it or see it positively? There is no space. It ain’t going to happen. So we need to build things so that we can.

[Dana] (33:42)
Ha ha! Yeah. Hence the boundaries, you know. I truly, MH, I really don’t see how anybody can live their best life. I don’t see how anyone in personal or corporate space can really reach their apex without dealing with mental health issues, without having a therapist or having a coach or having someone like you and reading your book and being able to…

[Marie-Hélène] (33:50)
Hands to boundaries. Yep. Yep. Yep.

[Dana] (34:18)
really address all the issues so they can perform because there is no way nobody will ever, ever, ever convince me that someone can reach their apex without healthy boundaries or without resilience plan. It just, I’m still waiting for the day for someone to, it’s never gonna happen. It’s impossible to do. And that’s exactly what I’m hearing you say. That’s just amazing.

[Marie-Hélène] (34:45)
Yes. I think, you know, those that might be tempted to say, well, Dana, yeah, no, I was not using boundaries. It’s because they don’t realize that they did. And that’s something I see also with resilience. Sometimes people will say, oh no, I don’t need to like take any action. I’ve been fine. Look, look, look, I’ve been fine. And when we talk about that part of life that we’re looking at, we see that

[Dana] (34:50)
Ha ha!

[Marie-Hélène] (35:10)
Sometimes naturally, the factors, the conditions were there. So that’s great. However, we cannot bank on natural factors or conditions to appear when we need them. Hence the plan, also the deliberate attention to boundaries.

[Dana] (35:23)
Mm-hmm. That’s amazing. I feel like that we could probably talk for a long time. The podcast time is about up, but I did want to make sure that my listeners can get access to you. Now what I have is drmarie-haleen.com. Is that where you want them to go?

[Marie-Hélène] (35:36)
Yes, we could. think so too. That’s a place to go. Otherwise they can go to thereziliensplan.com. So then that will bring them to the book, to what I do, everything and LinkedIn. Always a good place to connect. If you want to add your voice to this conversation, you can look at what I post there, share what you post and that’s where I am active mostly.

[Dana] (36:14)
Fabulous. MH, thank you so much. You are so busy. You have so much going on. I’m so impressed with you. And I thank you so much for giving your time and your wisdom and sharing it with me and with my listeners today. Thank you.

[Marie-Hélène] (36:29)
Oh, truly enjoyed it. Thank you, Dana.

[Dana] (36:31)
Now guys, I know you have heard numerous things in this podcast that MH has said that you’re thinking, oh my gosh, I have a best friend, I have a coworker, I have a family member that 100 % needs to hear what MH has to say. Then take this podcast episode, copy and paste the link, send it in text, send it in email, put it on your favorite social media platform so we can grow our Phoenix and Flame community and let people know you’re not alone. I hope your day is going great. I hope the rest of your day is fabulous. I’m Dana on Phoenix and Flame.