Healing Relational Trauma to Find Purpose (with Barb Nangle)

[Dana Skaggs] (00:01)
Welcome friends, whether you’re out on a walk, running errands, or relaxing at home, it’s wonderful to connect with you. Joining us today is Barb Nangle. Barb is also a boundaries coach. She is a speaker and the founder and CEO of Higher Power Coaching and Consulting, and she’s host of the podcast “Fragmented to Whole: Life Lessons from 12 Step Recovery.” Barb, welcome to Phoenix in Flame.

[Barb Nangle] (00:34)
Thank you so much. I can’t wait for this conversation. It’s going to be a goodie.

[Dana Skaggs] (00:39)
This is going to be fun. Now, I wanted to add to part of your bio. You said that in 2015, at the age of 52, after decades of therapy and tons of self-help work in a variety of areas, you found yourself in a 12-step recovery. So fill us in on your story, and we’ll just kind of organically follow one another.

[Barb Nangle] (01:00)
Sure, yeah. So I hit a codependent bottom in 2015. At the time I was working full-time at Yale University, and it happened because I was volunteering at my church on a project that served homeless people. Right around that same time, a homeless guy named Dan started coming as a parishioner, and he and I became really friendly. I took that as, oh, this is a sign from God, like I get to know a homeless person as a human being, so that when I’m doing this project serving homeless people, they’re really personified, they’re not like “the homeless,” but humans. It was actually very, very helpful. Well, two or three months into our friendship, we had a really big snowstorm here in New Haven, Connecticut, and I invited him to stay at my home instead of a homeless shelter, which I now know is not normal behavior, to invite a homeless person to stay in your home. But I thought I was nice, I’m a nice person, that’s why I do this.

[Barb Nangle] (01:54)
So he stayed, and then another time, and another time, and a few weeks later he was practically living with me, and I soon felt trapped in my own home. He was a self-proclaimed addict and alcoholic. Looking back, I think he may have had some kind of personality disorder, because this guy messed with my head in a way I had never experienced. What happened was, I’m in therapy talking about him, and in the middle of a sentence I went, oh my God, do you think I need to go to Al-Anon? And she was like, yes. So whatever I put into Google, I came up with the word codependent. And I was like, how have I never heard this word? Because I’ve been in therapy since 15, got introduced to the whole self-help genre at like 22. I’m 61 now, but I was 52 back then, and I’m extremely introspective, I’ve done all the things, and I’ve never heard the word codependent. So I started going to Codependents Anonymous, very quickly felt a sense of relief, I think partly from knowing, like, to me codependence is almost like a syndrome, and understanding all these things and pulling them together, understanding I’m not the only person, understanding that it’s a program of recovery and all that. I said to somebody pretty quickly, I think I need to be reparented. But I thought I made that term up, Dana, I didn’t know that was a thing. So six weeks into going to CODA, Codependents Anonymous, I went away to Cape Cod, Massachusetts to visit some friends, one of whom had been in Alcoholics Anonymous for like 10 years at that point, and she had always, since I met her, raved about how utterly transformed her life was because of AA. So I was like, oh, you’re going to love this, I’m in recovery too, I’m going to Codependents Anonymous. She said, oh, let’s see if there’s a CODA meeting nearby and we’ll go while you’re here. Well, she couldn’t, but she found an ACA meeting, which I knew of as ACOA, Adult Children of Alcoholics, which I did not think that I qualified for. She does, her dad’s an alcoholic, so she’s like, let’s go to that, and I was like, I’ll go for you, because you know, I’m nice, that’s what I thought. So I walk in, and in the opening readings, one of the things they say is, we reparent ourselves. And I was like, wait, what?

[Barb Nangle] (04:10)
And then they read the list of the 14 traits of an adult child, and I was like, oh my God. Now my friend tells me I sobbed the whole meeting, I don’t remember that. I learned that it’s actually called Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families. For that, I qualify. I bought the literature, I came home to New Haven, Connecticut, and started going to ACA.

[Barb Nangle] (04:33)
A few weeks later, a women’s meeting in New Haven started, I started going to that. A few weeks after that, I started doing the 12 steps with a small group of women. Meanwhile, I continued to go to CODA, but I just went to a meeting, I didn’t do anything outside the meeting, I didn’t work the steps or anything like that. ACA very quickly, deep, deep change for me. I was reading the literature and I’m like, oh my God, oh my God, this is what happened, this will happen, this will happen. I didn’t know something like, quote, “happened” to me. What happened to me was relational trauma, intergenerational family dysfunction resulting in relational trauma. I didn’t know any of this stuff. In the beginning I was like, trauma? It was clear I had the traits, but I didn’t know how I got them. When I first got in, there were people telling stories of being just brutalized as children, and I wasn’t, I mean, I grew up in a house, we had food, we had a lawn, my parents had jobs. They didn’t tell me it was a piece of crap that was never going to amount to anything, I didn’t get the shit kicked out of me. But I was emotionally invalidated, I was gaslighted, that kind of thing, and I call that the drip, drip, drip of emotional invalidation. So about a year into that, I decided to let go of CODA because it wasn’t quite the right fit for me, and I was going to pick up an additional ACA meeting, but it turned out God had a different plan for me. One of the women that I was doing the 12 steps with in ACA had started going to Overeaters Anonymous, and had been talking about her thinking and her behavior around food, especially sugar, and I was like, oh my God. And it wasn’t, oh my God, what she was doing, it was, oh my God, she’s talking about this. So she was kind of gently trying to get me into Overeaters Anonymous, and I won’t go into the details of that, but I’ve been in that program, I’m down over a hundred pounds from my top weight. I’ve been in ACA for nine and a half years, and I’ve been in OA for eight and a half. In OA it’s called “abstinent,” which is the equivalent of being sober in an alcohol program. My life has just been utterly transformed by the 12 steps of recovery. I think partly because it’s a stepwise program, partly because it’s a spiritual program, and partly because it’s done in groups with other people going through the same thing.

[Barb Nangle] (06:52)
And then I think on top of the amazing technology of the 12 steps is addressing the underlying trauma that I didn’t even know existed. It’s just been in the last, maybe 20 years, that we’re really starting to understand the massive impact of trauma on humanity, and what it does to us. So that’s my story in terms of how I got to where I am.

[Barb Nangle] (07:21)
I can pause there if you want, or I can dive quickly into how I became a boundaries coach.

[Dana Skaggs] (07:27)
No, let’s pause there, because there’s stuff I want to unpack, because you presented so much good meaty stuff. Let me toss out two things and let you decide how you want to answer. One is, I would like for you to take some time and really unpack codependency for my listeners, who might have heard that word but don’t really know it, because every once in a while you run across someone who thinks codependency is the same as dependency, and they’re not the same thing.

[Dana Skaggs] (07:56)
And I really appreciate the way that you pointed out that even though in your situation you lived in a house, you had food, you had clothes, you had a yard, your parents didn’t beat the shit out of you, all those things, you were still in that intergenerational trauma, which caused the relational issues.

[Dana Skaggs] (08:20)
I experienced the same thing, and I want to point that out, because it’s not uncommon, when you’re in groups and you start talking, I want my listeners to hear this, that even if they haven’t gone through, even if they weren’t raped, they weren’t accosted, they weren’t attacked physically, nobody tried to kick them or bite them or anything, that doesn’t mean that they’re not traumatized.

[Dana Skaggs] (08:47)
Because it’s almost like, if we can find someone who went through something worse, then we invalidate our own experience. Like, well, that didn’t happen to me, so I should be okay. And that’s just not all right.

[Barb Nangle] (08:51)
Yeah, I’d actually like to address both of those, but I’ll start with the second one since you just ended with that. So that was me: my first six months, I was kind of making excuses for why I was there, because I knew I had the traits, I just didn’t get how I got them. So what unfolded for me was I finally started to understand that the absence of good things happening can result in trauma. And I was like, oh, that happened. I later heard it said that unmet needs can result in trauma. So the main issue for adult children is abandonment, typically emotional abandonment, but it also can be actual physical abandonment, like a parent leaving and never coming back, or even dying. Something that helped me massively was my meditation teacher, Emily Fletcher, said: you have experienced 100% of your trauma and 0% of other people’s trauma. So stop trying to compare, you can’t compare. And listen, everybody’s constitution is different. Two people can be raised in the same home and have the same experience and have massively different impacts over the course of their lives, even though they both got physically abused. I’m not a therapist, I’m a sociologist, I used to be a researcher, but my understanding from the research is that it is often more difficult for people who have not been physically abused in some way to really wrap their minds around the abuse and the trauma, because they don’t have something to show for it. Physical abuse not only leaves a scar, but it ends, whereas the emotional abuse just continues on in your own head, by you, often. So there’s this self-blame thing that happens, there’s this “I don’t have it as bad as other people,” and that almost re-traumatizes us. For me it was, we didn’t deal with feelings, and we also acted like things weren’t happening that were happening. That is crazy-making for anybody, but especially a child, because a child is trying to understand, how does the world work? And then you have parents conveying things to you like you’re supposed to know things but we’re not going to tell you them, you’re supposed to figure them out, and we’re not going to use words, we’re going to sweep things under the rug, and you’re going to figure out what we sweep under the rug and what we don’t, on your own, even though you’re five and you don’t have the ability to do abstract thinking and stuff like that. So that will mess you up. Then in terms of codependence, I too had a…

[Dana Skaggs] (11:45)
Well, I’m going to pause you for just a second there, because we’re going to keep the codependency, we’re going to get back to that. Actually, what I’m getting ready to say now is going to wrap around to that, because I want to hear your thoughts on this, and what you just said in terms of being five and the family not talking about it, and then take that same situation and fast forward, ten, fifteen, twenty years, and then you have a person who was raised in that environment, and they’re trying to set boundaries, or they’re trying to be healthy, then you have, it’s not just their immediate family, but you have the enablers that push in and kind of attack and make you feel like you can’t. It’s so odd to me how the person with the issue seems to get protected in these family dynamics, and if you try to take a stand, then you’re the one that gets attacked. I find that, and that kind of goes in with also the enabling and that kind of stuff, so I’m just going to toss that out and let you wrap that around.

[Barb Nangle] (12:37)
Right, and the reason that happens is because you’re not toeing the family line anymore, you’re becoming, you’re trying to become unenmeshed, you’re trying to differentiate yourself from your family, and they see it as being disloyal. What we say in ACA is, you’re not being disloyal to the family, you’re being disloyal to the dysfunction. Big difference.

[Barb Nangle] (13:11)
Yeah, and one thing I want to say that I meant to say at the beginning, when you were saying, you can basically grow up in a family that by all appearances treats you well and still be traumatized. You can also be very loved and still be traumatized. So just because you grow up in a dysfunctional family, just because you have intergenerational family dysfunction, just because you have childhood trauma, does not mean your parents didn’t love you.

[Barb Nangle] (13:39)
It could, that could be the case, some people were not loved by their parents, but the majority of people are. So they have this dilemma, they don’t want to spill the tea on the family and share the secrets, because part of the dysfunction is we have secrets and we don’t share them with other people, and that’s partly how the dysfunction gets passed on.

[Dana Skaggs] (14:02)
Yes, and I love the way you point out the whole thing about love, that they can coexist, because I’ve experienced myself, and I’ve run into other people, that there’s this confusion and this guilt that happens when you want to call a spade a spade. You’re trying to set that boundary, you’re trying to say, no, I’m not going to participate in this, I want to be disloyal to the dysfunction, and yet at the same time, yes, I did feel loved. Listeners, if you feel like your parents did love you, it’s not an either-or, sometimes it’s an and. I was loved, and this stuff did happen.

[Barb Nangle] (14:34)
Right, and that’s another reason why it is so difficult for us to have healthy relationships, because we have this warped perception of love that it includes emotional invalidation, secret keeping, gaslighting, pretending stuff isn’t happening that’s really happening, and also not talking. So we say in ACA, the three dysfunctional family rules are: don’t talk, don’t trust, and don’t feel. So what we start doing in ACA is talking and listening to other people and hearing the stories. A lot of people come in and they sit in the room for a while before they just listen, they’re like, oh my God, I’m in the right place, this happened to other people, I thought I was the only one, I thought I was crazy, and maybe we were told by some people, I wasn’t told by our parents, you’re crazy, you’re making this up, you don’t know what you’re talking about. It’s because they’re in such denial about the dysfunction, which is a huge part of the recovery from intergenerational family dysfunction, coming out of denial. Most of the time when we say coming out of denial, it means somebody says this is X and you’re like, no, it’s Y. But in denial, when it comes to family dysfunction, we start to realize things we thought were normal or not, we start to realize things that, boy, that’s not that bad, that they’re actually traumatizing.

[Barb Nangle] (16:06)
We start to put things together that we never saw as being connected before. We start to remember things that we didn’t remember before. So many people in ACA have these giant swaths of their childhood that they have no recollection of, but as they get further and further in recovery, they start to recall them. One of the things I hear all the time is, people are afraid to remember things. Your psyche is built to protect you, it is not going to let something come to your consciousness that you cannot handle, so don’t worry about it. One of the phrases in the literature in ACA is, denial is the glue that holds dysfunctional families together. And I love that metaphor, because it’s true, who would ever pass down intergenerational dysfunction to their children? Nobody would purposely do that. We must be in denial to do it.

[Barb Nangle] (16:59)
So as the glue loosens, as we come more out of denial, I just actually this week recorded my 300th episode of my podcast. I know, I’m so excited. I think I have like nine episodes specifically about coming out of denial, and the reason I have so many is because every time a new layer of denial comes off for me, I record a new episode. My first episode, which was a pretty early one, I did on denial, and I called it D-E-N-I-A-L, “don’t even notice I’m a liar.” Two weeks later I was like, wait, this is the story I should have told. It was literally like three weeks later, this huge thing of denial came up for me, so three weeks later I have denial 2.0.

[Dana Skaggs] (17:59)
And you know, it takes courage to come out of denial, because not only is it just your experience, but then, like I said before, you have these other people in the dysfunctional family dynamics that don’t want you coming out of denial, and they don’t appreciate it, and they’re going to try to get you back into denial by just about any means necessary.

[Dana Skaggs] (18:23)
So when you were talking about 12-step recovery, which is amazing, I absolutely love that, how did that uniquely change your perspective on boundaries?

[Barb Nangle] (18:31)
So what happened for me, Dana, was I built boundaries through this haphazard, meandering path through the 12 steps of recovery. I didn’t even know that was what I was doing, to be perfectly honest. Then it was like two to three years, and it was like, oh, these are boundaries, this is amazing. So then I started reading about boundaries, because it’s not like someone sat me down and said, we’re going to work on boundaries, Barb, that’s not what happened.

[Barb Nangle] (19:06)
So I started reading about boundaries, and when I would read, I would draw these images to visually depict what I was understanding, and then those drawings turned into handouts, which turned into a workbook, which is the backbone of my boundaries coaching program. I created an accelerated process so people don’t have to take a meandering, haphazard path over two, three years like I did, but they can actually do it in a matter of weeks with me. I felt like when I was doing that reading, I retroactively understood what was going on, both before having boundaries and in the process of building boundaries. It helped me to name what I experienced. One of the things people would ask me, especially people who’d been in recovery and saw my dramatic change, is, how did you know what your boundaries were? And I was like, good question. And I’m like, oh, you know what, by what matters to me, by what’s important to me. I wish I had understood that going into the boundary building process, but again, I didn’t know that I was going through a boundary building process. So what I do with my clients is start them by taking them through an exercise to come up with their top five values. So they start from the get-go: this is what matters to me. So these are kind of like guideposts, or guardrails, for how I make decisions of when and where to set boundaries, by what matters to me. And then you kind of let others, if something doesn’t matter to you, then let it go, you only have so much energy, so really just focus on what matters to you. The way that I think of it, Dana, is: I thought of myself as a woman of principle and values. No, I wasn’t. I thought I was an honest person. No, I wasn’t. I lied about sex, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, relationships, but I mostly lied in the people-pleasing department. I was just not who I thought I was, and that all came clear, and building healthy boundaries got me into integrity with myself. It got me to live in alignment with my values, and I think of being a healthy boundary person as living on purpose. So many people nowadays are like, I don’t know what my purpose is, I have to find my purpose. Here’s your purpose: figure out what’s important to you and live in alignment with that, because your particular bundle of values is yours for a reason. They didn’t bubble up in you for no reason, so live in alignment with that, and if that’s not your actual purpose, then it will lead you there, because those things are important to you for a reason. For some people it’s going to be career, for some it’s going to be family, some it’s going to be service, some it’s going to be health, the environment, whatever it is, follow that, and it will not lead you astray.

[Dana Skaggs] (21:54)
So I’m listening to what we’re saying, and I’m trying to take the stance of a listener who maybe doesn’t really know. We hear the word boundaries, boundaries, but what exactly, can you give some examples? Because you talk about your values and finding out what really matters to you, and setting your boundaries to basically stay in your lane. Can you give some practical examples to people who don’t really understand what we’re talking about?

[Barb Nangle] (22:23)
Yeah, absolutely. So I think of boundaries as the standards I have for my life, and the limits that I put on myself or other people to uphold those standards. For example, health is a really important value for me, because I abused the shit out of myself for most of my life, and I want to live to a hundred, so that’s not going to happen if I don’t do some repair here.

[Barb Nangle] (22:46)
So I have some standards for my health, plus I’m in recovery for compulsive overeating, and I’ve had massive weight loss, and I want to keep it that way. So some limits I have for myself, that’s a boundary, is I don’t stay up past 11:30 at night. I don’t stay up all night scrolling or watching Netflix or whatever anymore, the way I used to. I have boundaries around my bedtime. Now, sometimes I go to bed before that, very rarely but occasionally I’d go to bed after that, but I don’t do it anymore, because it’s not good for my health. I require about seven and a half hours of sleep a night, so I give that to myself because I do good things for me. A limit that I would place on other people to help support my health is, I don’t allow smoking in my house. So that’s a boundary for me. You’re not going to be smoking, and if you’re going to, I live in a condo, if you’re going to smoke outside, you’re not standing right outside the door, you’re standing over there by the dumpster, because I don’t want your smoke coming in my window or the window of my neighbors. And if you don’t like that, then you don’t have to come and visit.

[Barb Nangle] (23:55)
So those are just a couple of very basic examples. I think the part where most people think about boundaries is the part where you tell other people about them, and some boundaries you verbally communicate and some you don’t. Let’s just say you’re the kind of person who always answers work emails over the weekend, and you decide that your boundary is now, I will no longer be doing email work over the weekends. So you might let everybody at work know going forward, I will no longer be responding to emails on weekends, you’ll have to wait until Monday morning. Or you could simply stop responding to emails on weekends and just start responding on Monday. Either way you’ve communicated the new boundary to people, but in the first case you’ve done it verbally, in the second case you’ve done it just behaviorally. Where the sticky part comes in is actually sticking to your own boundaries for yourself, but then the pushback behaviors. What happens if someone pushes back? Most of the time, of course, not everybody, but most people will. And I try to say to people, let’s give everybody the benefit of the doubt. There’s a whole host of reasons people don’t honor your boundaries. It could be they forgot, because you’ve never been like this before. It could be they don’t believe you, because you’ve never done this before, or you have and you’ve caved, so why should they believe you? It could be they have shitty boundaries, and so they need you to be extra firm in your boundaries, because they aren’t capable of doing it. It could be that they’re a toxic person and they’re going to just push and push and push. That’s a very small portion of the population, but if you have poor boundaries, you have probably surrounded yourself with people with poor boundaries, so you may have some of those people in your life. So the first step is, you just repeat yourself. Let’s just say, I’m at work, and my new boundary is, please don’t come into my office without knocking on the door. And if somebody just walks in without knocking, I would say, as a reminder, please knock before you come in. And if they do it again, I would say, maybe you didn’t hear me, but I asked you to please knock on my door. And if they did it again, I would actually get up and walk them out the door and say, so we’re going to rehearse this, and this may seem dramatic to you, but I want to make sure that you really get this. In order to come into my office, you need to knock and let me respond and say that you can come in. So let’s try it out. See how I’m talking, Dana, I’m not being a jerk about it. In the beginning it may be very difficult to talk like that, but the way I am right now, this is what’s happening.

[Barb Nangle] (26:43)
I need to train them. I’ve been teaching people my whole life how to treat me. Most of the time I’ve been teaching them, treat me the same as you always have, treat me the same as you always have, treat me the same as you always have. When I’m building healthy boundaries, I’m re-teaching them new ways. So when you’re changing the way that you were, you’ve got to give some people some time to catch up with you. And if they have really poor boundaries themselves, they’re going to need extra time. And if they’re toxic, then you might need to crank it up a few notches, like lock the door, put a do-not-disturb sign. You know what’s funny, actually, I just remembered that, when I said that before I had healthy boundaries, I use this as an example because this was me. I put a sign that said do not disturb, and one of my colleagues, who I love dearly, would just walk in, and this was me, I didn’t say to him, that sign, it’s for you.

[Barb Nangle] (27:37)
I just talked about him behind his back. This man has a master’s degree, how does he not know, when I don’t normally have a sign that says do not disturb on my office and I don’t normally have the door closed, but now it’s closed and there’s a sign on it, that means you. I would say stuff like that about him to other people, rather than going to him and saying, listen, this sign right here, I mean it. But I clearly didn’t mean it, because I didn’t follow through. And I had tape on the lock of the door so you couldn’t lock it, because there was such a problem when I first got the office that the key always got stuck. So it was like, I can’t even lock the door. So I just suffered, because I wouldn’t say the words to him, listen, my door is closed for a reason, there is a sign that says do not disturb. But I couldn’t do it.

[Dana Skaggs] (28:36)
You couldn’t. And I love the fact that you’re bringing up this wonderful example, because people have this idea, this myth, that setting boundaries is confrontational. And I’ve said before, some of the most peaceful people I know are the ones that have a very good understanding of their boundaries and how to set them and how to defend them. Because in that example that you gave, instead of holding your boundary firm with this man, you ended up going around and talking about him behind his back, and that’s not healthy. We think, when we set the boundary, it has to be a very calm thing, that’s another myth I think I run into, and I’m sure you do as well. People have this idea that they have to come in hot, that they have to come in with all kinds of tone and attitude and volume and sassy body language, and that is simply not the case.

[Barb Nangle] (29:35)
No, exceedingly rarely is it. One of the tips I share for setting boundaries is, be polite. The reason I say that, Dana, is this: what happens for many of us is that we wait and wait and wait until we’re pushed beyond our limits and we explode, and it works. So we think that’s what boundary setting is, that’s why we think I have to have a confrontation, because I don’t ever say anything to you, and then the hundredth time I can’t take it anymore, and I explode, and other people are like, whoa, okay, and then they tiptoe around you. So whatever your boundary was actually works, but you didn’t even try to say it gently to them, like, that doesn’t really work for me, or please stop that.

[Dana Skaggs] (30:20)
Well, but half of our boundaries is managing our own emotions, it’s our responsibility. So when we allow ourselves to get to the point of blowing, then we were not adhering and honoring our own. Something came to my mind, a movie: do you remember the movie “Road House” with Patrick Swayze? Did you ever see that one?

[Barb Nangle] (30:25)
Oh, vaguely, yes, a long time ago, in the movie theater.

[Dana Skaggs] (30:42)
Yes, he was a cooler at the Double Deuce, and he was having to escort people that would come to this bar, and they hired him to come in because it was terrible, people were coming in, being violent, having bar fights, throwing glass and destroying property. So they hired him to come in, and he was training the other people there how to do it, how to handle the situation. He said, you take them when they’re causing a problem, you take them by the arm, and you walk them to the door, and be nice, it’s like you’re going to usher them out and you be nice. There’s no reason to get upset, there’s no reason to do all these kinds of things, you do what you’re supposed to do, you usher them right outside the building, you do that, and be nice. Now let me ask you this, because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, my listeners are thinking, oh my gosh, we’ve got to hear more about what Barb has to share and say, maybe take advantage of her coaching. So what I have here on your website, where do you want them to go? I only have the podcast, it’s higherpowercc.com/podcast. Where would you want people to go if they want to know more about what you have to offer?

[Barb Nangle] (31:57)
Yeah, I’m guessing that’s from my profile from PodMatch, but I perhaps haven’t updated it. I have a Boundary Building Starter Kit, it’s a multimedia kit, it’s free. So if you go to boundarystarterkit.com you will see it there and just have to sign up for it. It is for people who say yes when they really want to say no, who neglect themselves because they’re so focused on others, who don’t know what to say. All kinds of stuff. I think there are nine videos, there’s a couple of worksheets, there’s an article. And then I mentioned I have 300 podcast episodes, forty-something of them are specifically about boundaries. In that Starter Kit there’s a link to a playlist of just the episodes on boundaries, so that’s a great place to get started. That’s on my website, so if you go to boundarystarterkit.com it will take you to my website and everything to do with me, including my podcast. But they can hop over, if they’re listening to this on a podcast app, to Fragmented to Whole, or you can go to fragmented2whole.com, that’s also the page on my website for my podcast. If you want to listen on any podcast outlet, it’s linked on that page, so you can go there on your phone, click on the Spotify link, for example, and it will open up my podcast in Spotify for you.

[Dana Skaggs] (33:20)
Fabulous. Barb, thank you so much. This has been so refreshing, to have this conversation with another person that’s very passionate about boundaries and has seen it work. Thank you for spending your time and your wisdom and sharing that with my listeners.

[Barb Nangle] (33:23)
Oh, thank you. Thank you for inviting me. This was great. I loved it.

[Dana Skaggs] (33:40)
So fun. Guys, I know you have heard multiple things in this podcast that you’re thinking, oh my gosh, I have got to tell my friend, my coworker, my family member everything Barb has to say. We’re going to go to her website, we’re going to read, we’re going to watch, we’re going to do all the things. I tell you what, go to the website, put this podcast episode, copy and paste the link in text, in email, put it on your favorite social media sites, spread the word, grow our Phoenix in Flame community so we can let people know you are not alone. I’m Dana, I hope you’ve had a wonderful day, I hope the rest of your day goes fabulously. This is Phoenix in Flame.