Turn Workplace Conflict Into Healing (with Susan Winchester)

[Dana] (00:01)
Welcome friends to Phoenix in Flame. We are going to have a fantastic connection today. Joining us is Susan Winchester. Now Susan is the past chief HR officer for Applied Materials, a Fortune 150 Silicon Valley company and Rockwell Automation. She is an author and sought after keynote speaker and HR consultant known for her book, Healing at Work, a guide to using career conflicts to overcome your past and build the future you deserve with the co-author Martha Finney. Susan, welcome to Phoenix in Flame.

[Susan] (00:46)
Thank you, Dana. I’m delighted to be here.

[Dana] (00:48)
This is fantastic. Now, I also wanted to point out that you also guide executives, managers, and employees on how to leverage the workplace as a laboratory for emotional healing to accelerate human potential and organizational performance. That sounds absolutely amazing.

[Susan] (01:13)
Well, you know, we’ve kind of taken the workplace and flipped it upside down because so often our work experience, our relationship with people we work with can be a great source of a lot of painful emotions. And so what Martha and I do in the book, and then I’ve had the privilege of sharing all over the world publicly on public stages, et cetera, is really teaching people how to start looking at the workplace as a laboratory. as your own practice place for practicing new ways of interpreting what’s going on around you, new ways of responding versus some of the behaviors that we might have used when we were younger to try to navigate our environments and actually using workplace conflict as a catalyst for that emotional healing.

[Dana] (02:02)
That is fantastic because I think unfortunately we hear people talking about their work as something to endure, something to just get over with so they can get back home or a place of stress. You hear people frequently complaining about work issues and this kind of thing. So I love the way that you are essentially turning that inside out because we all spend so much time at work and you’re saying, hey, wait a minute.

[Susan] (02:09)
Mm

[Dana] (02:29)
this could be a phenomenal opportunity to really move forward and kind of heal some of those things that have happened in the past.

[Susan] (02:39)
Well, and I think that that’s really the key, what you just said right there. And I can tell you from my own experience, so I spent 36 years in the corporate HR world, working with some amazing companies. And I never, I was completely clueless, completely unconscious to how much my growing up in a dysfunctional childhood, even though my parents did the very best that they could, it’s not about judging our parents, but how much that experience shaped how I would later. experience my workplace, how I would experience my bosses, know, people in authority, how I would experience peers. And that connection was such a missing link for me. And as Martha and I were doing the research for the book, you know, I discovered and couldn’t believe it that, you know, there are a lot of us that grew up in dysfunctional childhoods. Yeah. And I, you I never really thought of my childhood as a dysfunctional childhood. I knew that people had it a lot worse than I had it. But in discovering a really important study that was done in the late 90s by the Centers for Disease Control and the Kaiser Permanente led by two doctors, Felipe and Anda, they did a quick survey. They asked 17,000 adults in the US. So it’s a fairly homogenous group of people. The good news is the study has been replicated in lots of other countries as well. But they asked them to… indicate whether they had experienced what they called the adverse childhood experiences, the ACEs. And there were 10, there are 10 of those. And they fall into the categories of abuse, sexual, emotional, physical abuse, neglect, things like incarcerated parents, violence in the home. You know, there’s a number of different things that fall into these ACEs. And they asked 17,000 people before the age of 18, how many of these did you experience? And they were shocked when they discovered that nearly two thirds of those people said that they’d experienced at least one of the ACEs and 40% had experienced two. And then there’s that group of us like myself and Martha who fall into the four or more ACEs. And I never would have associated the word trauma with my childhood. It was not a word that meant that it just didn’t resonate for me.

[Susan] (05:00)
until a therapist suggested I go to a healing trauma program. I remember thinking, I wonder why she wants me to do that. But what I found in that program, it was an amazing program at Onsite down in Tennessee, is that they describe trauma as either a big T trauma, like the ACEs, in other words, a significant moment in a child’s life. But then they also introduced the concept of little T trauma.

[Dana] (05:08)
Yeah

[Susan] (05:27)
And what that basically is, is when you experience a feeling of helplessness over a long amount of time, chronically experiencing that, that that alone can equate to a big T trauma. And it was sort of a revelation to realize that, I never thought about how much growing up with a dad who had his own issues, who had probably his own dysfunctional childhood, he had a lot of rage, unpredictable rage. how much that would shape me as a leader and as an employee in a company. Because what I don’t tell a lot of people, but I do now because of the book, is that 30 of my 36 years, my accomplishments were really fueled by my own underlying belief that I wasn’t good enough. And it was like a hamster on one of those wheels going into work every single day, feeling like I had to prove myself over and over and over every single day. you know, would do if I had a day where I’d come home and think, you know, actually, my whole experience was go home at night and beat myself up because I never felt like what I was doing was enough. That was a vicious cycle that created a lot of anxiety for me. was anxiety, fear, stress, all those painful emotions that we don’t like to feel. And like a lot of high achieving perfectionist who or trying to manage their environments, we turned to unhealthy, self-soothing habits to try to take the edge off. And my mind was Chardonnay, and Chardonnay was my best friend for a long time. Luckily, I had to break up with Chardonnay. Thank God, intervening in my life 20 years ago, and I’m very grateful to be sober for 20 years, and now learning healthy ways to manage when I’m feeling dysregulated, know, learning how to take control of my experience, which is what I teach in the book.

[Dana] (07:19)
You know, you’ve brought up several things already that I think are just amazing and thought provoking topics. For example, it’s not unusual that that people will say, because I’ve heard this as well. They feel like since someone else had it worse that they don’t really have a right. They feel guilty feeling that they were somehow traumatized or to to define themselves as traumatized. And so they just they just keep forging on ignoring what they went through, ignoring the subsequent narratives that were created in their mind because of what they went through. We can all find somebody else who went through something worse. So does that mean that none of us have the right to address what happened to us? You know, that doesn’t make any sense. And so I’m glad that you brought that particular, you know, that topic up. And I love the way you’ve, know, you’re the terminology that you’ve used. the adult survivor of the damaged past. I think that goes down a little easier than, you know, for people than saying that this eye was traumatized when really maybe they were, but it was a small T trauma over time, which resulted in a large T.

[Susan] (08:20)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s a great point. In fact, I’ll mention a great book that I recommend everybody read by Dr. Peter Atiyah called Outlive. And he does a beautiful job describing all the things we need to be doing for healthy long lives. And in his book, he quotes his own therapist, a guy named Dr. Jeff Wilson. I think it’s Dr. Jeff Wilson. I can double check that. And I use his quote when I’m doing my keynote because it’s such a beautiful description of childhood trauma. And he basically says that, you know, basically trauma is a big word, but if you were a child and you experienced a sense of helplessness and had moments, whether they were really moments or just perceived moments where you felt unsafe and you felt fear that that alone equates to having experienced a traumatic experience. And so that feeling of, you know, I think a lot of people can relate to feeling helpless.

[Susan] (09:35)
whether you had an alcoholic parent, a narcissistic parent, overly critical parent, there’s a lot of, I think people can relate to that feeling of helplessness more than the term of trauma. So whatever word you use, I think it’s healthy to start to acknowledge that we maybe did experience some things, whether you describe them as trauma or a feeling of helplessness, but those things are absolutely influencing you in the workplace as well. And it’s what I call the unconscious wounded career path. When you’re oblivious, like I was most of my career to how much those influences are affecting your relationship with basically everybody, including yourself at work.

[Dana] (10:18)
You know, as I was reading your book and I was going to bring up a couple of things from it because I wanted to ask you first of all, what your experience was in writing it, because you, as you said earlier, you are quite open in the book and you are very transparent, which on Phoenix in Flame, we love this because I, I pretty much that’s a requirement of all my guests that we admit that we we’ve gone through some pretty hard stuff ourselves so that we can build a community that we’re all in this together. We all kind of know what this feels like.

[Susan] (10:35)
you Yeah.

[Dana] (10:47)
And you do that in your book. What was that experience like for you kind of laying that out and being honest about some of those very raw experiences that you had?

[Susan] (10:56)
Well, let me tell you that it almost didn’t get published. There was a moment, had finished, Martha and I had finished the manuscript and we were ready to turn it in to be published. And I just, I froze. I could not do it. I was feeling sick. I felt that I was going to be judged professionally. I felt that I was going to be judged personally. I mean, I’m very open about the experience that I experienced, my sister experienced in our childhood. And so I was really worried about people that knew my dad being really upset. In particular, I was most worried about his, his, the wife, my dad had passed away. So his widow and I was frozen in fear of letting people know basically me and the truth of what my childhood was like. And Martha, thank God for Martha. She, she came across a woman named Celine DeCosta and she had an ad. It was like a New Year’s day ad that said something like, you know, do a 90 minute one-on-one intensive with me to break through whatever’s. holding you back or something like that. And we knew that Celine, because Martha did some research on her, had worked with a lot of people that we admire and respect. And so I basically engaged Celine to help me figure out what I needed to do to break through the fear. And she’s been my coach now for four years, by the way. She’s really good. But what she did is she really, she took me into a very calm meditative state and helped me really look at

[Dana] (12:18)
You

[Susan] (12:29)
my purpose for writing the book and my why for writing the book. And even in that 90 minute mo, that 90 minute session, I realized that my purpose was to help wake people up to this unconscious experience that they’re having in their careers, wake them up so they can step onto the conscious healing career path, which is how you use the workplace as a place for healing. And What Sien really did was she helped me realize my why was way bigger than my fear. And we also planned different scenarios depending on what happened so that I felt prepared if I were to get judgment from either personal or professional avenues. But once I had that breakthrough that my why for writing it, it was like, okay, let’s go. And I have not looked back. And the more open, the more I share with people about my own experience, the stories that I tell when I do my keynote.

[Susan] (13:27)
really brings it alive for people and they realize that they are not alone and that there is a different way to experience their workplaces and their careers.

[Dana] (13:38)
love this so much. mean, I admire what you did and you found a way to face what you were feeling. You found a way, you you didn’t feel like you could do it on your own, so you found someone else to come alongside and walk with you on that journey. And that is such a testimony to other people that might be kind of locked in a moment on their path and don’t know what to do. I want to bring up, based on what you just said, there’s a section in your book that I have like two check marks by. have this system when I read books, I’ll underline things that are, you know, I think are important. I want to know, I want to go back. But I have like check marks that I put by things that are specially important. So if I want to go back and just go to the highlights, can, I know to go back to the check marks. And you have something, it’s actually on page 109 of your book. And you were talking about, you know, healing in the workplace and kind of

[Susan] (14:19)
I will.

[Dana] (14:33)
you know, talking about it’s not going to heal everything in your whole life, right? It’s a year you have. It’s not like some big, huge panacea that goes across the board because we still have families. And you said, in fact, the healthier you become through healing at work, it’s possible you will see pushback from your family of origin because you might be demonstrating new ways of relating to them.

[Susan] (14:44)
Mm Mm

[Dana] (14:59)
to the world and to yourself that will feel like an effrontery, a rejection of established family cultural patterns. I think that is spot on, nail on head. That happens a lot.

[Susan] (15:09)
Mm-hmm. Yep. I completely agree because when we start to realize that the responsibility of determining our value belongs to us and not other people, there’s a major shift that happens. Oh, I get chills when I’m talking about it. Because what I learned when I was little is that it was every, and this was unconsciously learned, of course. My dad, he didn’t try to teach this to me, but I learned and believed that it was everybody else’s job to determine my value. And my job was to be as perfect and as people pleasing as possible to earn that much needed validation, particularly from men in authority in the workplace. And as I have been on this healing journey and we’d call it healing at work because it is a journey, we’re never done with this work, but starting to realize that as I’m changing my relationship with myself and taking responsibility for my reactions, my interpretations, my responses, et cetera,

[Susan] (16:17)
and letting other people be responsible for their own property, as Melody Beatty puts it in her wonderful book, The Language of Letting Go. That starts to shift everything. It shifts how we interact with people. I love the work you’re doing on getting really clear on boundaries, because I think that the inherent outcome of the sentence that you just read is that we do start to create different boundaries with relationships that we’ve had in the past that they don’t always like. You know, as a recovering perfectionist and people pleaser, it’s really, you know, I still have to work really hard to say, well, you know, I love you, but no, I’m not gonna do that. And people can have their own reactions, but I think that’s the most important thing is realizing that their reactions belong to them. And, but that’s an uncomfortable place to be, as you know, with the work that you’re doing. But the reality is, is that as we start to take that responsibility for our own,

[Dana] (16:46)
Mmm.

[Susan] (17:15)
view of ourselves, our value of who we are, our validation of our abilities and our capabilities, rather than constantly. I was such a needy person. I was completely unaware of how needy I was, basically wanting everybody to pat me on the head and tell me what a good girl I was and how annoying that is. I kind of look back now and I think, it’s surprising I made it this far in my career. But people-pleasing and perfectionism is highly rewarded in the workplace. Learning new ways of interacting with others and getting comfortable with other people being unhappy with you is part of the work. That’s part of the work.

[Dana] (17:53)
Yes. You know what we do, Susan, you and I, it weaves, it intertwines so much. As I was reading your book and thinking about what I do with the boundaries work and it’s just, you know, because understanding what belongs to us and what belongs to somebody else is key. Setting the boundaries is one thing, but then having to defend it because there will be, and use the term pushback, and I’ve used that myself many times,

[Susan] (18:00)
It does. Yep, it is. You

[Dana] (18:22)
People don’t like it. so sometimes as your point, you can be at work and kind of be coming into your own and having those opportunities to learn, learning how to set boundaries. Then you turn around and try to do that with family members and they’re not having it.

[Susan] (18:40)
Yeah, my expertise is in the workplace. I do believe this all translates into our personal lives as well, obviously. Because as we get more clean with ourselves, taking accountability and responsibility for every single thing that’s happening in our life, and we start to practice, I have a simple three-step methodology that I teach people for workplace conflict, but it also works really well for personal conflict. I’ve used it myself personally as well. I call it the rapid power reclaim. You how do you reclaim your power quickly when you feel destabilized? Or is Kelly L. Campbell, who wrote a wonderful book called Heal the Lead. She talks about how important it is for us to manage when we get activated. She calls it activated. I call it getting triggered, emotionally triggered. But you know, taking responsibility when I feel upset because of something that I perceive you’ve done to me. Maybe you gave me a hard look in a meeting and I’ve interpreted in a negative way. And I start to have all these emotions of I’m not good enough and I need to go into people pleasing and perfectionism, all my tap dancing that I would do. And instead really learning how to calm yourself down. First of all, the first step of the rapid power reclaim is called create choice. When we have that emotional charge going on in our bodies, we can’t create choice because we’re stuck in our reptilian brain that fight, fight or freeze place. And so to create choice, you’ve to let that emotion out of your body, screaming into a pillow, beating something, you know, a pillow really hard, but using sound movement and breath just to move it out of you. And once you’ve done that, you now have the ability to step into step two, which I call elevate, elevate action. So rather than going into all of your old behaviors, for me, the exhausting people, pleasing and perfectionism for other people that might being a bully. For some people, they’re trying to hide, staying off the radar, know, sort of fight, flight and freeze and fawn, all show up at work every single day. Taking a moment to really think about what can I do to elevate my action in this moment? And calmly using the prefrontal cortex, the executive part of our brain, to help us put a path together that would be different than how we might’ve responded in the past. And then the final step is once we’ve done those first two steps, The third step is celebrate and integrate. And all that means is that when we focus on something that we’ve done differently and we’re giving ourselves kudos for it, that’s an act of positive psychology, focusing on the positive, which actually improves the quality of life and reduces depression. And leveraging the science of neuroplasticity, that ability to rewire the networks in our brain, when we celebrate something, it’s starting to tell our brain that we can do things differently going forward.

[Dana] (21:23)
Thank

[Susan] (21:32)
And as we just practice more and more with that simple three-step process, it actually starts to calm the whole nervous system. When I get emotionally charged because of something you say to me in a meeting, I had one colleague one time who was saying negative things about me behind my back, which was very triggering. I was worried that I was gonna get judged for whatever she was claiming I wasn’t doing well. And my elevate action with her first had to discharge the emotions, I was really mad. But then, Actually, I decided I’m going to set up lunch with her and ask her what she’s concerned about and have her talk to me directly about it. And I did that and she nearly fell out of the chair when I said, I understand you have concerns about me and I’d love to understand them. People have come to me sharing that you’ve been talking about this. Well, she was so fuddled by the fact that I just laid it on the table. She said she denied it and then she never did it again. And then at celebrating when we do that, you sometimes it’s as simple as one time I was celebrating something. I went and had an ice cream cone and it just was such a pleasurable experience because I don’t do that very often, but I’ll never forget that moment. I was sitting outdoors. I had this ice cream. It was a beautiful sunny day. I the birds singing and that act of rewiring my neural pathways so that I start to heal. That’s exactly why the workplace is such a great place because there’s conflict all the time.

[Dana] (22:34)
Oh. I love that you give such very practical examples. I love when you were talking about calming down, you know, because people may or may not realize that when we get activated, we get triggered, we lose access to our prefrontal cortex. When that, you know, fight or flight fawning kicks in. that reptilian brain, that emotional part of our brain takes over and we don’t have the ability to be reasonable and logical until we calm ourselves down. So that is fantastic.

[Susan] (23:26)
Agree. Yeah, we cannot create choice until we move that emotion out of our bodies. that’s, know, one of the, has given me many gifts, but one is learning how much the body stores this emotion and how debilitating it can be when we aren’t processing it out of our bodies using whatever method you want. Sound, movement, and breath is all that matters. I like sound and movement. fact, one time I was doing my create choice. getting the emotion out of my body. And I started doing somersaults on the floor singing. That was crazy. But it was getting my energy, my anger, my sadness, my fear of abandonment, whatever it was going on, out of my body so that I could then get into that prefrontal cortex to say, okay, well, what do I need to do now? And there’s some really powerful methodologies for doing that, which we don’t have time for today, but that really is a game changer when you start to…

[Susan] (24:24)
Process your own emotionally charged reaction to something happening in a really healthy way. And actually, Kelly Campbell, my friend, saw her last week when I was in New York, she created something, I have to find it, but it’s like My Healing Menu, I think it is, myhealingmenu.com, where she provides all these different modes of somatic body work, processing work. I think it’s called myhealingmenu.com. You can look up Kelly Campbell and type in menu, I’m sure it would come up. She’s done an amazing job compiling a variety of different methods, but it’s simple. Sound, movement, and breath. It could be just jumping up and down and yelling and screaming. I have a blue baseball bat I got from Amazon for $5. Sometimes I’ll take that baseball bat and just go whack on a couch or a chair and just yell while I’m doing it. And then you feel sort of a discharge and then you go, okay, now what do need to do? Oh, all right, now I can get into that smart part of my brain.

[Dana] (25:27)
I love this. I love this. Now I want to ask you, you came up with this wonderful phrase, bumper car moments. Tell us about bumper car moments.

[Susan] (25:37)
Yes. Yes, so bumper car, just imagine riding the bumper car ride at the amusement park and you’re riding along and your friends are laughing and know, someone taps you and it’s funny. then all of sudden someone sneaks up behind you and slams into your car and it feels like a huge crash has just happened. Your whole body’s reverberating. Well, that’s what workplace conflict often feels like. When somebody’s done something or not done something. or we’ve done something or not done something, but we feel that emotional charge, we feel activated, as Kelly says, triggered. The responsibility is how to manage that effectively. Well, we all know at work, it happens all the time. Maybe a boss has given you some feedback that caused you to feel not worthy. Maybe a peer has done something that makes you feel like you can’t do anything right, whatever your emotional trigger is. this concept of bumper car moments, Martha and I both independently came up with that concept. And when we were brainstorming for the work we were doing with Healing at Work, we thought this is exactly what we’re talking about with workplace conflict. It feels like you’ve just had a crash. And sometimes the other person doesn’t even know a crash has happened. For example, one time someone who worked for me came into my office one day in tears and sat down and said, when you said this in a meeting two days ago, I took it to mean this about me. And God bless her for her courage to come in and talk to me because I didn’t even know she felt a crash by something I’d said in a meeting. And when she told me what I said in her interpretation, I was able to say, oh my goodness, that is not at all what I meant. So she had a misinterpretation of something I said. For her, that was a bumper car crash. She spent two days ruminating about it and had the courage to come in and ask me to clarify it, which I did. And then all that emotion was drained out. But that’s, we love this concept of bumper car moments. In fact, on the cover of the book, as you know, there are two bumper cars facing off. And, you know, that is often the cause for a lot of painful experiences for people, because they’re limiting beliefs about themselves or are being kind of brought forward front and center. They go into all their old strategies, which can be exhausting.

[Dana] (27:41)
Mm

[Susan] (27:58)
And we like the language because even teaching companies how to use common language, like, oh my gosh, Dana, we just had a bumper car moment. I’m so sorry. Let’s sit down and talk about it. It gives people a language that’s a way of kind of de-emotionalizing what just happened methodology to find out what really happened. And, you know, we have so many assumptions that we make all the time about other people, which are 99% wrong, including the assumptions I make.

[Dana] (28:08)
you Yes, yes.

[Susan] (28:27)
And that’s what a bumper car moment is. It’s actually the moment, the catalytic moment for someone to catch themselves before diving into that pit of painful emotion to actually apply the rapid power reclaim. The bumper car moment is the catalytic moment for emotional healing.

[Dana] (28:45)
I love that to be able to use those opportunities to put into motion these coping strategies and to get better rather than hiding from it or avoiding or sometimes I assume people at work and maybe you can give some other examples, they would make it a sub like that example you just gave if she hadn’t come to you and she just decided in her mind that she made an assumption and decided it was true and rather than coming to you,

[Susan] (28:52)
It’s that.

[Dana] (29:15)
And part of what she did was she was able to set a boundary where she was owning her own feelings, but she wasn’t owning yours. And so she was able to come and talk to you about that. So that was fantastic on her part, but so many other people don’t engage in those conversations.

[Susan] (29:30)
Right. Yeah. And actually, there’s another great book called The Power of Discord by Dr. Ed Tronek and Dr. Claudia Gold. And they do a beautiful job of describing how powerful conflict between two people can be in building even stronger relationships. And that so often we want to run away from conflict because it’s upsetting. We’re afraid, we’re mad. We have all that triggered emotion going on inside of us. But actually when we step into the conflict, the seeking clarification, talking about the impact it had on me, there’s lots of different ways, lots of different methods for having these difficult conversations that we get stronger and stronger at being able to understand that a lot of times the other people’s reaction, behavior, whatever they’re doing has nothing to do with us. And we take a lot of things to mean a lot of things about ourselves when in fact, you know, just like this one particular case with this woman, what I had said had nothing to do with her. I had a lot of respect for her professional capability. But you’re right, most people want to hide from the conflict, run from it. But actually when we start practicing using it, because we all get emotionally charged at work, we all get emotionally activated and triggered. And so the next time that happens, rather than just staying mad or emotionally upset or depressed or sad, and ruminating about it. Sometimes I would ruminate for weeks about something that happened. What a waste of emotional effort. That’s why I talk about it’s really unlocking an organization’s potential through its people to create even greater performance than what they’re already creating. If you deal with it in the moment, you move through it by doing the three-step process I talked about, and you’re able to address the person that you feel has done something to you or has caused this reaction in a very

[Dana] (31:05)
Okay.

[Susan] (31:24)
effective way using some of the techniques, it can completely change the relationship. People often have, I have so much respect for this one particular person who came to me because she had the courage to come and seek out clarity about her assumptions, which were inaccurate.

[Dana] (31:35)
Yeah. That is wonderful. It reminds me, years ago, a former patient of mine gave me this decorative piece and it said, don’t stumble over something behind you. And I think that’s what you’re doing is you’re really providing this illumination and these for people to see that work is an opportunity that we don’t have to keep stumbling over something behind us that we can really go into the work.

[Susan] (31:51)
Mmm. Love that.

[Dana] (32:08)
place and be much stronger as long as you’re owning these things and using these strategies.

[Susan] (32:09)
That’s easy. Yeah, I completely agree. And I love how you describe that quote from one of your former patients or clients. I’m not sure what word you use in your work as a therapist. But it is true that we spend a lot of time, a lot of emotional, would describe as emotional labor that we expend over some of these bumper car moments. When in fact, if we could just put ourselves through that three step process, get the energy out of you, get the emotion out of you that create choice, elevate your action and then celebrate and integrate it. The more you do that, the more confident you become in realizing that most of what’s going on around us at work actually doesn’t often have a lot to do with us.

[Dana] (33:00)
I that. I love that. Susan, I feel like we could probably talk for hours, but I know I have to live it by my interviews to about 30 minutes or so. But oh, my goodness, I might have you back on and we can talk about some other things if you have more time. But let me find out. OK, so the information I have here for my listeners that absolutely will want to get more in touch with what you have going on and what you have to offer. The healing at work.

[Susan] (33:06)
I don’t know.

[Dana] (33:29)
That is your website. Is this correct?

[Susan] (33:31)
It is that is that is building a new website that healing at work will be a part of. But yes, healing at work .com. You can get a lot of information, a lot of different resources available for people if they want to explore more. And so, yeah, that’s the best. That’s the best place.

[Dana] (33:48)
And you do have a five minute quiz to find out what’s hurting, if somebody’s concerned about what’s hurting my career growth, you know, then they can go to that healingatwork .com and just take a five minute quiz and kind of get some answers there.

[Susan] (34:01)
Yeah, that’s actually a quiz that I built a number of years ago, but I have a new quiz and I’ll make sure I get the QR code for you because what I do in the new quiz, it’s really an updated more streamlined, it’s much shorter than my original quiz. It’s really all about understanding really the root causes of your workplace stress tied to what the childhood experiences basically. You you think about what’s the greatest source of my workplace stress from my childhood, that’s what I really get into.

[Dana] (34:30)
Fabulous.

[Susan] (34:30)
So we will get you, just literally just launched it last week. It’s brand new.

[Dana] (34:35)
This is awesome. Susan, I appreciate your time and your wisdom and your energy and your experiences and your willingness to be transparent to come here on Feeding Some Flame and share this with all of our listeners that who knows where they are on their journey, that they’re facing so many things that you have brought up today and that your information has helped them and given them some insight and some direction. Thank you very, very much.

[Susan] (35:00)
You are very, very welcome and I just love knowing you and you and I are doing work that’s very complimentary and it’s just a pleasure and privilege to be on your podcast today. Thank you.

[Dana] (35:10)
Fantastic listeners. absolutely unequivocally know that you have heard numerous things today in this interview that you’re thinking, oh my gosh, I have a best friend. I have a coworker. I have a family member that absolutely needs to hear what Susan has to share. Take this episode, copy and paste the link, send it through text, send it through email, post it on your favorite social media sites so we can grow our Phoenix and Flame community and let everyone know we’re not alone.

[Dana] (35:40)
We are together in this. I hope you’re having a great day. I hope the rest of your day goes fantastically. I’m Dana on Feeding Some Flame.